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Sunday, December 11, 2011

A Badly Invented People

In the post-news environment, media no longer exists to report, it exists to disseminate glib talking points that sound good at first, but don't stand up to examination. Fact checks, one of the latest media gimmicks, have become another vector for disseminating talking points. So have media blogs which began repeating the same ridiculous thing over and over again.

Take the response to Gingrich's accurate statement that the Palestinian Arabs are an invented people. Aside from all the hysterical "sky is falling" nonsense, is the comparison between the Americans as an invented people and the Palestinian Arabs.

Let's look at how wrong this is and in how many ways. To begin with the American colonies did not demand their independence based on some spurious ancient history. If they had then Washington would have dressed himself up as an Indian and instead of the United States of America, there would have been the Indian States of Iroquisville. 

Americans are not a self-invented people, they are a self-evolved people. The American revolution was a struggle between a colony and the mother country that ended in a break and the creation of a new country that still used the language and much of the culture of the mother country, but at the same time the colonies had been slowly evolving their own unique identity.

The "Palestinian" Arabs on the other hand are an invented people, and not even a self-invented people. That dubious honor fell to some comrades in Moscow and the Arab nations who found it convenient to have terrorist militias that could launch attacks across the border, supposedly on their own initiative, but in reality answering to them.

Their whole claim to a state is the bizarre insistence that they are the region's original inhabitants who were driven out by the actual original inhabitants, the Jews. When they are actually the descendants of the Muslim conquerors who drove out or subjugated the native inhabitants. It's as if George Washington had not only put on an Indian costume but began claiming that his ancestors were there for thousands of years before the Cherokees drove them out.

Palestinian identity is just so much gibberish. The official definition of that identity encompasses only those parts of the Palestine Mandate which Israel holds today.

The people who live on the parts of the Palestine Mandate that were turned into the Kingdom of Jordan in 1921 are not Palestinians. There is no call to incorporate them into a Palestinian state. The people who lived in the parts of Israel that were captured by Jordan and Egypt in 1948 weren't Palestinians, and there was no call to turn the land that today comprises the so-called "Occupied Territories" into a state. But in 1967 when Israel liberated those areas-- only then did they magically turn into Palestinians.

How is anyone supposed to take this nonsense seriously?

Suppose I were to tell you that there were an ancient people known as the Floridians whose land was seized from them to make resort hotels and orange groves. What would be your first clue that there was something wrong here? Florida is a Spanish name meaning flower. Palestine, which is a Latin name applied by its ancient conquerors, derived from the Greek, has the same problem.

When the Jews rebuilt their country, they did not call it Palestine, that was the name used by European powers. They called it Israel. The local Arabs who had come with the wave of conquests that toppled Byzantine rule had no such history and no name for themselves. Instead they took the Latin name used by the European powers and began pretending that it was some ancient tribal identity, rather than a regional name that was used by the European powers to describe local Jews and Arabs.

Even Arab place names invariably lack historicity. The Arab name for Jerusalem is Al-Quds or the holy city. It's a little like calling New York, Big City and pretending that it means you saw it first, when it actually means that you saw it last and are piggybacking on its existing identity.

The Arabic for Hebron is a translation of the Hebrew. The same goes for Bethlehem. Ah but what about Nablus? The Jews may call it Shechem, but the Arabs have a unique name for it. Surely Nablus is part of the great and ancient Palestinian heritage. Not a chance. Nablus isn't Arabic, it's the Arabic mispronunciation of Neapolis, which if you happen to know Latin means "New City".

Nablus has the same relationship to Neapolis, as Filistin does to Palestine, it's the Arabic mispronunciation of the Latin. The name "Nablus" is every bit as regionally authentic as Naples, in Italy or Florida, which has the same meaning.

But what of the "Occupied Territories"? The Jews call them Judea and Samaria. The Arabs call them ad-difa’a al-gharbiya or the West Bank. Nothing says ancient history like bluntly descriptive names. But what of Ramallah, capital of the Palestinian Authority, that at least is an Arabic name. And that's true. It is an Arabic name. A name almost as ancient as the city which dates back to the 16th century when a group of Christian Arabs crossed over from what is today Jordan fleeing Muslim persecution. Under Jordanian rule, Ramallah was overrun by Muslims and today it has a Muslim majority.

When the capital of your ancient people was founded by Christians from the other side of the river in the 16th century, and it wasn't actually your capital until the bygone days of the 1990's, and it only became your capital because you drove off its residents in the 1950's, then your ancient civilization has a problem. It doesn't actually exist.

The Arabs are not indigenous, they are colonizers who overran the land in tribal groups. There is no Palestinian people. For that matter there isn't a Jordanian people or an Egyptian people. Just clans living behind one set of colonial borders drawn by European mapmakers in the 20th century. Those clans moved back and forth. Prosperous families lived like feudal lords. There was no common culture or national identity.

The Al-Husayni clan, who dominate Palestinian Arab nationalist politics, were a bunch of immigrants from what is today Saudi Arabia, and settled in the region. Clan members include Yasir Arafat, the Mufti of Jerusalem, along with a raft of modern officials, including the Chief of Staff of the PA and the head of the Waqf, the Muslim religious authority. The Al-Husayni clan was out for itself, it is still out for itself. It is not a people, it is not a part of a people, it is one of many Arab clans in the Middle-East whose only priority is power for the family.

The Al-Husaynis are no different than the House of Saud or the Al-Thanis of Qatar, they are ruling clans pretending to be a nation. The Palestinian Authority is for the most part a coalition of prominent clans, some of the same clans who refused to deal with the Jewish inhabitants and tried to drive them out instead.

If the Palestinian Authority was willing to be honest, it would call itself Husseinstin instead of Filistin, but since its entire claim to the land derives from a supposed ancient history, in which time they did not get around to thinking of a name for themselves, or creating a single government until the ancient days of the 1990's, calling themselves the Husseinstinians wouldn't have worked.

The Hashemite ruling family, also Saudi expats, may call their country the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan, but they keep the "Jordan" part in there all the same, because it creates the illusion of antiquity. But Jordan is at least the river. What is Palestine? It's the foreign name for a region that was meant to be a subsidiary of Syria. And the PLO began life as a Syrian front group, with its original chairman, who had represented Syrian in the UN, asserting that there was no such place as Palestine.

This bloody circus has been going on for way too long. Enough that the Arab states and the local clan leaders have managed to turn out generations of children committed to killing in the name of a mythical identity for a state that they don't really want. The call for a Palestinian state was a cynical ploy for destroying Israel.

It's why the negotiations never go anywhere, they're not meant to go anywhere. The players aren't free agents, they answer to their masters, and they can't function without them. Hamas is running around like a chicken without a head, because it's afraid of losing its Syrian backing. The Fatah leaders of the PA are even more incoherent, their ploy to threaten to unilaterally create a state has fizzled, and now they're threatening to turn over rule to Israel if they don't get what they want.

Self-government was the baseline for the American Revolution, but the Palestinian Authority can't even manage that. Its budget consists of foreign aid. Its entire economy runs on money given to it by the rest of the world. It has an entire UN agency to cater to it. And despite being the biggest welfare state on the planet, it's still completely incapable of taking care of itself.

Gingrich is right that the "Palestinians" are an invented people, but they're a badly invented people. The Big Lie technique has turned their existence into an established fact, but the only basis for it is the repetition of the same lie. Orwell said that "In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." Gingrich's statement was a revolutionary act and no matter how the media might pillory him for it, as long as people continue to challenge the universal deceit of the press, then the revolution can continue.

80 comments:

West Coast Rich said...

The reason Nablus is not Neapolis is also due to the letter P not being part of the language, if I have understood this correctly, so B is substituted. Making the fiction of a resident people there who are not Jewish the "Balistinians" does smack too much of Monty Python, however, and this is not Monty Python, but an excuse to commit atrocities and massacres of those unliked, such as the Jewish people.

Greg Lauren said...

Awesome article Daniel.

Check out mine on this topic which I wrote back in August shortly before their bad attempt to create a state at the UN.

http://www.levantinetimes.com/2011/08/tribal-fusion-palestine-pipe-dream.html

NervyNews said...

Great article, thank you.

Lemon said...

Yup, good post.

Der Shygetz said...

Supposedly, a group of Balestinians who tried to commit fraud using bank documents blew it when they misspelled the name of Bank haPoalim as Bank haBoalim. Indeed, they took a name for their invented people that they themselves cannot pronounce in their language. Bank haBoalim...well, suffice it to say that the translation would be rated PG-17 or whatever R is called now.

The problem, though, is oil. Oil pays for the Big Lie called the Balestinians. If it were not for oil, the Arabs would be less important to the world than sub-Saharan Africa. Even if a substitute were found just for engines, it would be the end of them because the US can produce enough oil for itself to make plastics, petrochemicals etc.

mindRider said...

SK, you know it, and expressed it very nicely again in this post, I know it, and now thanks to the interview with Gingrich going viral and the Bally's frantic response to it, luckily a lot more people who did not want to know it also got confronted with the whole and plain truth and might set some of them thinking.

A Jewish acquaintance who was born in pre-Israel (Palestine) Jerusalem and has this mentioned in her Dutch passport, until today cannot get a cellphone contract due to the non-existence of Palestine!

Anonymous said...

LOL! FACT CHECKING is deception? Only in your pinhead universe. Please, try NOT to post while drunk. LOL.

Bob and Sue said...

Is it my imagination or do only Republicans and Conservative statements get 'Fact-Checked'? I have to believe this is another gimmick of the left to convince citizens that they need not think for themselves, it can be done by their fair and brilliant minds!

Zachriel said...

Sultan Knish: Their whole claim to a state is the bizarre insistence that they are the region's original inhabitants who were driven out by the actual original inhabitants, the Jews. When they are actually the descendants of the Muslim conquerors who drove out or subjugated the native inhabitants.

That is not accurate. Analysis of the y-chromosome shows that Palestinians have kept their genetic identity and their occupation of the area for thousands of years. Just as importantly, Palestinians are very closely related to Jews, who have also kept their genetic identity over the two thousands years of the diaspora.

Nebel et al., The Y Chromosome Pool of Jews as Part of the Genetic Landscape of the Middle East, American Journal of Human Genetics 2001.

Hammer et al., Jewish and Middle Eastern non-Jewish populations share a common pool of Y-chromosome biallelic haplotypes, Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences 2000.

but pygmies said...

As usual, completely accurate and brilliant... which leaves me with a question: when will you (we all) realize that logic, facts, reality, truth have no bearing on what people think, do, feel? People want it to be the way they want it to be. Period. And the way they want "it" to be is generally to conform to the fairy-tale world they imagine exists. That's called ideology. These days in the West that fairy-tale is that all people and peoples are "equal" (whatever equal means). So, people who blow up buses are victims, and people who cure cancer are imperialist aggressors. Daniel -- "ayn ma'l'asot."

Linda Rivera said...

TAKIYYA -- Lies and deception in Islam are considered a good thing to deceive hated non-Muslim infidels and advance the cause of Islamic conquest and sharia. When lies and deception are applied to the Holy Land, it becomes extremely dangerous for liars! G-D keeps ALL His promises! G-D promised to curse those who curse Israel.

Linda Rivera said...

Mr. Gingrich told the TRUTH! Gingrich also told the truth when he declared the Muslim goal is to destroy Israel. This means not one inch of Israel can ever be given to barbaric enemies bent on Jewish genocide.

* PLO Leader: The Palestinian People Does NOT Exist - March 31, 1977
PLO executive committee member Zahir Muhsein: “The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese.

Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct “Palestinian people” to oppose Zionism - Dutch newspaper Trouw

Daniel Greenfield @ the Sultan Knish blog said...

Der Sheygetz, excellent

mindRider, confrontation is the essence of challenging a myth

Bob and Sue, some lefty pols get fact checked, but much less so and usually when there's a reason for it. It's not the 'opinion based' fact checking that's applied to Republicans.

Zachriel, genetic studies are not reliable, but they show a mix of African, Jewish and European genes. Which is what you would expect from people who wandered around and took a certain amount of captives and interbred with them.

pygmies, I know it quite well which is why I don't do didactic pieces, ridicule works better

Anonymous said...

Under that logic, Israel does not exist either, is just a mythical country started in 1948

Daniel Greenfield @ the Sultan Knish blog said...

Not really. Israel existed and so did the Jewish people for thousands of years. The record of their existence is embedded in both the region's largest religions, including Islam.

It's like arguing that a made up country is on the same level as the Roman Empire.

fsy said...

That picture of those murderers in their togas is too disgusting to even glance at for an instant.

fsy said...


The record of their existence is embedded in both the region's largest religions, including Islam.


Why isn't this being repeated everywhere? A quick search through the Unholy Koran will turn up numerous exhortations to the Jews to observe the Torah! Even if they say this is from the early period of Mohammed, it constitutes a clear admission of the truth of the Torah and the chosenness of the Jewish people.

babawawa said...

Actually, in terms of DNA, Jews and Arabs share a lot of it. All that means is that both Jews and Arabs are of Middle Eastern origin. It does not prove that Palestinians have been on the land longer than anyone else. On the contrary,to call themselves Palestinians means they couldn't have been on the land longer than anyone else, as both Jews and Christians predate the name change.

David Pakter said...

Re: Invented People

Daniel Greenfield has accurately described the "Alice in Wonderland" quality of the entire Middle East debate whether it concerns a One State, Two State or Twenty State "solution".

According to the logic of proponents for the establishment of a separate State for a group of people calling themselves "The Palestinians", it would logically follow that the countless people who today live on a myriad of so-called "Indian Reservations" in the USA have every right in the world to rise up and campaign for their own separate independent State or States on the continent of North America.

Indeed, those people probably can make an argument that they have the right to establish their own State/s with far more force than the so-called "Palestinians" of the Middle East.

No one can possibly argue who inhabited North America first- the Europeans or the indigenous people now miscalled "Indians", (because Columbus mistakenly believed he had discovered India.

The above debate could be made for the feuding opposing inhabitants of almost every country in the world.

But how often do we see the name of Tibet in the news or agencies and "rights groups" yelling about the really brutally invaded and occupied nation and peoples of Tibet.

Regarding Tibet and a countless number of other "occupied" areas of the Earth, most of the so-called "rights groups" could not care less.

That is because there are few, if any, Jews living in or having even a remote connection with such 'occupied in fact' areas of the world.

Thus, in the end it really does not matter or serve any purpose to argue and endlessly debate and attempt to inform and enlighten the Israel bashers of the world.

Had Hitler succeeded in his goals there would likely be little anti-semitism in the world today because there would be so few Jewish people left alive on the planet to hate.

But the Jews, at least half of them, robbed Hitler and the Nazis of their maniacal dream to wipe them off the face of the Earth.

And the Jews even managed to not only survive but make it back to their original country/ancient roots, where many Jews had never left in the first place, and rebuild the Ancient Land of Israel into a free and strong and independent nation.

And that is the crux of the matter. The Jewish people refused to be destroyed once and for all.

And for that "crime" of surviving they will never be forgiven.

This is the entire story of all the problems in the Middle East today in a nutshell.

May I add, as was once so wisely said-"all the rest is commentary".

thewiredjournal said...

Another most excellent piece Danial. I love reading your work. The truth, flowing with sweetness or honey, is music to my ears. Like "Mellifluous" Smooth and sweet: “polite and cordial, with a mellifluous, well-educated voice” I wish I had a fraction of the writing skills to articulate in writing the truths and reasoning ability you bring to the world.

Anonymous said...

Invented people.

I'll add that they're the worst invention ever.

Daniel Greenfield @ the Sultan Knish blog said...

fsy, it is. Not everyone listens.

babawawa, DNA studies are like a Rorschach test, everyone can find something that reads right.

David, for that matter why aren't the Basque entitled to a country. Or the Kurds. It's wholly selective.

WiredJournal, thank you, it's all a matter of doing it often enough.

Anonymous, yes and much less useful

Lemon said...

Babawawa, no they don't.

occupant9 said...

The Big Lie is worse than what Gingrich stated. The full disclosure of the "Palestinian" goal is the deep connection Haj Amin al-Husseini, the Mufti of Jerusalem and the so-called "father" of "Palestinianism" had with Hitler. That part of the legacy and lineage of the "Palestinian" objective has yet to become openly stated by anyone with the necessary clout.

But worse, what excuse have the various Israeli leaders that have enabled the Big Lie to spread unchallenged? Why have the same Israeli leaders delivered to the "Palestinians" the Judenrein results the "Palestinians" live/die for?

DP111 said...

Christians in Egypt have far greater right to demand a state in Egypt - a two state solution in Egypt. They were after all the inhabitants of Egypt before being invaded by Muslims//

Barry said...

Daniel,

When you ask why the Basque and Kurds are not entitled to a state you have to realise that this encompasses human rights: which humans, what rights and when applicable.

Barry said...

By the way Barry Rubin points out another remark of Gingrich's which escaped the media's attention:
Yet ABC and everyone else missed the real bombshell in what Gingrich said: “For a variety of political reasons we [the United States] have sustained this war against Israel now since the 1940s, and it’s tragic.”

http://pjmedia.com/barryrubin/2011/12/11/fact-checking-newt-gingrich-and-the-fact-checkers-on-the-middle-east/

Nomadic100 said...

Excellent post, as usual! As a minor point, "neapolis" derives from Greek, and does, indeed, mean "new city." "Palestine," on the other hand, derives from the Latin, "Palestina," a term used by the Romans to refer to the general area.

Anthony said...

Every culture was "invented" at some point. It is highly unlikely that any of the current cultures/states/nations are derivatives of Paleolithic hunter gatherer tribes. It is also true that Palestinians would probably not have called themselves by this term or even recognized an affinity with the other Arabs in the West Bank or Gaza Strip until recently in modern history. Before that point, individuals affiliated with and owed loyalties to family, then to tribe/locality, then to some larger entity such as a state/meta-culture.

That being said, the article (and Gingrich's statement) left me with a number of questions.

1) What rights do a cultural groups have to land, political, power, etc. and how do things like the length of time a culture has persisted in an area impact these issues?

2) Do the Palestinians need to assert their existence as a "culture" in order to vie for the right to form a state, or can they demand this privilege/right acting as a group of individuals whose interests diverge significantly from those of Israel, Jordan, or Syria?

Interesting article and thoughtful replies....

amirban said...

Interesting article, thanks. Regarding the al-Husseinis, what is the evidence that they hail from Arabia?

David Kra said...

Minor point: (1) My understanding is that Transjordan annexed the west bank including East Jerusalem, granted Jordanian citizenship to its residents, and changed the county's name to Jordan. (2) Egypt did not annex Gaza, ran it as a military occupation, and did not grant its residents Egyptian citizenship.


Separately, according to the alquds.org web site back in 1996, the history of Palestine goes as far back as 1895 CE. See http://web.archive.org/web/19961027234005/http://www.alquds.org/gups/Palestine_5.html (other content from that website can be found at http://wayback.archive.org/web/*/alquds.org*

The site also quotes a UN resolution that "No discrimination of any kind shall be made between the inhabitants on the grounds of race, religion, language or sex."

( http://web.archive.org/web/19970111091547/http://alquds.org/gups/Palestine_40.html )

My understanding is that it is a capital crime in PLO controlled areas to sell real estate to a Jew.

It is also my understanding that Jews are prohibited from activities on the Temple Mount that are permitted to Christians, Moslems, and Buddhists.

Dovidl

Anonymous said...

The word Falastin appears in plenty of old chronicles in Arabic, as do Nablus, Jenin, and Gaza, to name a few of the towns in the PA. However derivative these names are from pre-Arab hegemonic times, they have been around longer than some of those antecedents. But those chronicles don't make any political or ethnic unit out of all those towns. There were "Nawabilsa", "Janiniyun" and "Ghazazwa", but no "Falastiniyun" (Palestnians) ever. Even among today's so-called Palestinians, you have such family names as "Masri" and "Masrawi", which denote their comparatively recent Egyptian origin.

Zachriel said...

Daniel Greenfield @ the Sultan Knish blog: Zachriel, genetic studies are not reliable, but they show a mix of African, Jewish and European genes. Which is what you would expect from people who wandered around and took a certain amount of captives and interbred with them.

While there is certainly some admixture from other local populations, the studies show that Palestinians are a distinct subgroup that is more closely related to Jews than to other local populations.

babawawa: Actually, in terms of DNA, Jews and Arabs share a lot of it. All that means is that both Jews and Arabs are of Middle Eastern origin. It does not prove that Palestinians have been on the land longer than anyone else.

It shows that Palestinians have very deep roots in the area. It also shows that the Jews have very deep roots in the area. Furthermore, it shows that Palestinians and Jews are closely related populations. This diagram based on the Hammer study may help:
http://www.zachriel.com/images/Hammer_2000_Jew_Arab_Ychromosome.png

Daniel Greenfield @ the Sultan Knish blog: babawawa, DNA studies are like a Rorschach test, everyone can find something that reads right.

Sorry, that is simply incorrect. Molecular genetics is a highly developed field of science.

DP111: Christians in Egypt have far greater right to demand a state in Egypt - a two state solution in Egypt. They were after all the inhabitants of Egypt before being invaded by Muslims//

Same mistake, that is, conflating ethnicity and religion. The people of Egypt, Christian and Muslim, are closely related peoples, and have roots in the area that predate both religions.

Fat Man said...

They would stop being Palestinians (a word they cannot pronounce) if we stopped paying them to play the part. Cut-off UNHCR and its funding from the US and the EU, and they will dry up and blow away.

Leah said...

Excellent as always, Sultan I did, however vomit when I saw the picture of Arafat and thought that I was done......until I saw the picture of the sweaty pigs at the end of your article. Do be kind next time- give us a warning, please.
Thank you for your consistent truthful pieces of what needs to be heard around the world.

Dov Bar-Leib said...

Thanks Newt for a second time. First it was the Jerusalem Embassy Act of 1995. Now you have correctly portrayed Fakestinian history. I have not decided whether I am voting for you yet. You are an entrenched progressive of the Teddy Roosevelt variety, and you did take a bundle from Fannie and Freddy. But in my mind you have earned a hearty thank you for simply telling the Truth. And for that you will receive a reward far greater than a Presidential nomination.

Sara Layah said...

Excellent article, thanks!

Keliata said...

But what of the "Occupied Territories"? The Jews call them Judea and Samaria. The Arabs call them ad-difa’a al-gharbiya or the West Bank. Nothing says ancient history like bluntly descriptive names."

So true, and the description of Samaria and Judea have been called West Bank for so long that people just assume it's Arab. I was surprised myself when I learned that the "West Bank" was actually Samaria and Judea. That was an eye opener. Quite an eye opener since I knew from the bible even as a kid that these places were Jewish.

And yet...I also remember looking at pictures of places in Israel and its people described as "Palestinian."

No mention of Palestinians whatsoever in the bible and yet the people in the pictures were always described as Palestinians. Another bible had a map of Israel but not labeled Israel at all--Palestine. No mention of Palestine in the bible.

Petunia said...

Excellent article with one big error: Egyptians are a people. Egypt has an ancient civilization that predates the Arab invasion. You might want to take this out. Otherwise awesome; many pieces of information I hadn't heard or read elsewhere. I will be sharing this with family and friends. Thanks.

DP111 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
DP111 said...

Zachriel: Same mistake, that is, conflating ethnicity and religion. The people of Egypt, Christian and Muslim, are closely related peoples, and have roots in the area that predate both religions.

Not really. Culture/religion is far more important in the world then race. The so-called Palestinians are distinguished by their religion, even though they may share DNA with Jews. The same applies to Christians and Muslims in Egypt.

Hadassa said...

The Roman "Palaestina" from which "Palestine" has been derived means "land of the Philistines".

John said...

Neopolis is a Greek name, rather than Latin. It was also the name of Naples when Southern Italy (Roman) was settled by Greeks.

Daniel Greenfield @ the Sultan Knish blog said...

The origin of the word is Greek, the name is Latin as it was created by the Romans.

We don't know what the word Palestine means, or whether it refers to the Philistines.

Ancient Egypt has little to nothing in common with the present day country in terms of its people.

DNA studies are dubious at best. Considering how many of the so-called Palestinians emigrated fairly recently, such a study discredits itself.

Lemon said...

Egyptians are a people, but the majority living in Egypt today are Arabs and not Egyptian.

D. Collaric said...

When the young State Israel was militarily attacked, many Muslims sided with the attackers and were unwilling to fight for their new "Home-Country". In a sense one could argue that those men not willing to fight, were in fact traitors. Why should they have the right of return? Especially seen in the light that many of the Arab-Muslim flooded into the land to prevent the Jews from "buying" the land, while in fact many of the Muslim Immigrants into Israel themselves where rather poor and the land was owned by remnants of the Ottoman Land-lords. Look at Arafat, the best (while world re-known) example: He was born in Egypt! But which Muslim demanding the "Home-Land" will reject him based on this point?
When I read that "Jews" stole the land and property of the Muslims, I ask myself, how much did these people earn so that shortly after arriving in the land, they were not only to buy the land from their "Muslim brothers" but build lavish homes, homes people who left Europe with it century old tradition of masonry and carpentry, would feel jealous toward the "Tent-Dwellers" which in fact most Muslims of that time and region were...

Zachriel said...

DP111: The so-called Palestinians are distinguished by their religion, even though they may share DNA with Jews. The same applies to Christians and Muslims in Egypt.

The key is that they are not so-called Palestinians, but a distinct genetic grouping that has occupied the area for thousands of years.

Daniel Greenfield @ the Sultan Knish blog: Considering how many of the so-called Palestinians emigrated fairly recently, such a study discredits itself.

Considering the many Jews who have immigrated recently, it is quite amazing how the very same data shows that Jews have roots in the region.

Daniel Greenfield @ the Sultan Knish blog said...

The Jews are a people who have maintained that identity for thousands of years. Claiming that Arabs from across the Middle East somehow changed their DNA when they moved to what is today Israel (but the DNA on the East Bank of the Jordan didn't change) is laughable.

Zachriel said...

Daniel Greenfield @ the Sultan Knish blog The Jews are a people who have maintained that identity for thousands of years.

Yes, and not just their cultural identity, but their genetic identity, as well (though there is some admixture). Jews have very deep roots in the region.

Daniel Greenfield @ the Sultan Knish blog Claiming that Arabs from across the Middle East somehow changed their DNA when they moved to what is today Israel (but the DNA on the East Bank of the Jordan didn't change) is laughable.

The genetic data is clear. Surrounding populations didn't move in large numbers to the area (though there is some admixture). Rather, Palestinians have continuously occupied the region for thousands of years, while adopting Arabic culture. They have very deep roots there.

Pilpula Charifta said...

"When they are actually the descendants of the Muslim
conquerors who drove out or subjugated the native inhabitants."


According to what I've read in "Time Immemorial", the land was almost totally empty until the influx of Jews in the late 19th century. Arabs from surrounding countries emigrated in large numbers, to take advantage of the new jop opportunities.

Daniel Greenfield @ the Sultan Knish blog said...

The Jews are not a people because of genetic identity as can be currently quantified, but because they persisted as a group, marrying within the group, and maintaining a group identity.

We clearly do know that people from surrounding areas did move in. Surnames alone testify to that as does the history of various clans like the Al-Husayinis.

As Pilpula points out, the changing conditions spurred on major migration.

Zachriel said...

Daniel Greenfield @ the Sultan Knish blog: The Jews are not a people because of genetic identity as can be currently quantified, but because they persisted as a group, marrying within the group, and maintaining a group identity.

Yes, that's correct. So do the Palestinians, as the genetic data confirms.

Daniel Greenfield @ the Sultan Knish blog: We clearly do know that people from surrounding areas did move in.

Of course. Just as Jews moved about and other populations migrated into where Jews had established communities, in the Middle East and beyond.

Daniel Greenfield @ the Sultan Knish blog: the changing conditions spurred on major migration.

That's right. Jews migrated continuously, and there was the inevitable admixture from other peoples, yet they maintained their genetic inheritance. As did the Palestinians.

You can wave your hands all you want, but the genetic data clearly supports the fact that the Palestinians are a distinct group that has deep roots in the region. The genetic data also confirms that Jews have deep roots in the area, and that they are more closely related to Palestinians than to the populations they lived amongst during the Diaspora.

Zachriel said...

Pilpula Charifta: the land was almost totally empty until the influx of Jews in the late 19th century.

About 700,000 Palestinians were displaced by the 1948 war, including some forced out by the Israeli army (such as at Lydda and Ramla) and by fear of Jewish terrorism (after Deir Yassin).

"Allon repeated the question: What is to be done with the population? Ben-Gurion waved his hand in a gesture that said: Drive them out! ... The population of did not leave willingly." — Yitzhak Rabin

Zachriel said...

Zachriel: Jews migrated continuously ...

More accurately, they migrated periodically.

Daniel Greenfield @ the Sultan Knish blog said...

Genetics has come a long way, but it's widely used to support beliefs when it isn't nearly at the point where it can do so reliably.

When it comes to Jews and genetics, there are studies that can be used to support any belief about the Jewish people. The same is true of any other group.

Simply doing the Warmist thing and repeating "It's science" over and over again won't pass.

Insisting that the Arabs who moved to Israel are genetically different than say the Arabs in the land where they came from is not a serious argument.

Deir Yassin was a conflict between Jewish and Arab militias, it was not terrorism. Much like Sabra and Shatila was part of a conflict between Arab militias.

The Allon quote is a forgery from a radical left-wing journalist.

ezra said...

There was some report of an "Arab" village in the hills south of Chevron that maintained some Jewish practices and were not quite accepted by their Arab neighbors. It seems this village was converted to Islam only a few hundred years ago. I would not be surprised to find their DNA very similar to Jews. I don't know what kind of sampling was used by studies which show similarities between Jewish and "Arab" DNA, but the particulars of the studies-how many samples, exactly who were the samples from etc. is critical in determining the truth of the claim that Jewish and Palestinian Arab DNA uniquely similar. It is possible that those Moslem "Arabs" who do have "Jewish" DNA simply are of Jewish descent. Given the massive Arab influx into the area I would guess that such people form a very small percent of those calling themselves "Palestinians".

Daniel Greenfield @ the Sultan Knish blog said...

Muslims tend to do forcible conversion so undoubtedly there are any number of Arabs with some Jewish ancestry in the line. After over a thousand years of conquest, slavery, rape, etc. That would include some of Mohammed's descendants.

It's possible that there's a village or two that went that way. Looking at specific families is important as cousins often tend to marry cousins and you have a high degree of inbreeding.

Conversos exist in Spain and even America, it's possible that they still exist in the Middle East.

Zachriel said...

Daniel Greenfield @ the Sultan Knish blog: Genetics has come a long way, but it's widely used to support beliefs when it isn't nearly at the point where it can do so reliably.

Genetics is a highly developed scientific field.

Daniel Greenfield @ the Sultan Knish blog: Simply doing the Warmist thing and repeating "It's science" over and over again won't pass.

We provided cites to scientific studies published in American Journal of Human Genetics and the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences. These studies detail the methodology, and can be verified by independent researchers. All you are doing is handwaving.

Daniel Greenfield @ the Sultan Knish blog: Deir Yassin was a conflict between Jewish and Arab militias, it was not terrorism.

It was a massacre of civilians, including children. The Jewish Agency Executive immediately sent a formal letter of apology to King Abdullah.

Daniel Greenfield @ the Sultan Knish blog: The Allon quote is a forgery from a radical left-wing journalist.

The Allon quote is from the first-hand account of Yitzhak Rabin.

Daniel Greenfield @ the Sultan Knish blog said...

A highly developed field is not the same thing as a fully developed field. If we took genetic studies at face value, then Kurds and Jews would actually be the same people.

Deir Yassin was a firefight in an Arab village used as a base for attacks between Jewish and Arab militias with the usual resulting casualties. The majority of those killed were adult men.

The Jewish Agency represented a rival militia at odds with those engaging in the suppression.

The Allon quote is not from Rabin, it's from a leftist journalist.

Zachriel said...

Daniel Greenfield @ the Sultan Knish blog: A highly developed field is not the same thing as a fully developed field.

Genetics, as a field of science, is more than developed enough to determine such relationships. Again, we cited reputable, high-impact scientific journals. Your argument thus far is "Is not."

Daniel Greenfield @ the Sultan Knish blog said...

My argument is that history is incompatible with your assertions.

cornholio said...

Deir Yassin was used as a firebase and OP by the muslimes in the War of Independence, they got what they deserved. You can't use a village as an armed encampment and then complain when its attacked, unless you're a lying muzzie.

Anonymous said...

Zachriel the genetics only matter if you are not whoring around with other gods; but you wouldn't understand this - their ideology is from Mecca and is just about everywhere else and therefore have no rights to the land. They are religious and should understand this as the QQur'an sura 3:3 states that their god has given the Qur'an as confirmation to what has been laid down in the Torah and Injil (TNK and New Testament) and therefore by their own god's admission they must NOT have any part of the land of Israel.

So that clears that part up.

Now to the dreadful fact that 2 generations of invented people only know a lie:

http://arabterrorism.tripod.com/quotes.html

Don't just read this, use it as part of your political argument when you lobby the UK Foreign Office/Cameron - the Mandate for a homeland for Jews in a RE-created Jewish nation, in the RE-established ancient, historical homeland is UK's responsibility - only the original mandate is legal.

Going back to the link - The quote specifically about causing their own people to become homeless and aggressive to killing themselves and others is particularly disturbing. Also the truth that the invention of "Palestine" serves their purposes, politically against Israel wants quoting EVERY time.

Also remember that Yasser Arafat, the 1st "Balestinian" leader was an Egyptian........hmm I wonder how his untreated Phimosis is doing after servicing all those perpetual virgins?

kate b

Zachriel said...

Daniel Greenfield @ the Sultan Knish blog: My argument is that history is incompatible with your assertions.

The human y-chromosome is only carried by males and is passed down from father to son. Occasional mutations can occur, and we can use these mutations to build a family tree.

If your history says your paternal grandfather was King of Prussia, but the genetics disagrees, then your biological grandfather was not the King of Prussia.

There is no escaping this fact of genetics. Palestinians have deep roots in the area we know as Palestine, as do Jews.

Zachriel said...

And to reiterate, in response to Pilpula Charifta,

Pilpula Charifta: the land was almost totally empty until the influx of Jews in the late 19th century.

The land wasn't empty. Hundreds of thousands of people were displaced by the 1948 war, including those forcably expelled.

DP111 said...

Zechriel wrote: The key is that they are not so-called Palestinians, but a distinct genetic grouping that has occupied the area for thousands of years.

That actually is the key in the current conflict.

aviv said...

Actually, every DNA study has shown that Jews are genetically closer to Kurds and Armenians than any other ethnicity, including arabs. And it is a fact that the Egyptian Copts are descended from the Egyptians of Pharaonic times and are the true 'original' Egyptians. They ar genetically different than the moslem arabs. As the Coptic Bishop stated some time back in referring to arabs, 'you are guests in our country.'

Lemon said...

Genetics has political uses and so is suspect in some cases.

aviv said...

'There is no escaping this fact of genetics. Palestinians have deep roots in the area we know as Palestine, as do Jews'

The fact is, out of the total population of 'palestinian' arabs in Israel today, a very, very small minority can claim 'deep' roots. And ironically, they are those whose ancestors were Jews.

http://rslissak.com/content/are-palestinians-indigenous-people-palestine-drrivka-shpak-lissak

Zachriel said...

aviv: Actually, every DNA study has shown that Jews are genetically closer to Kurds and Armenians than any other ethnicity, including arabs.

That is incorrect. "Kurdish and Sephardic Jews were indistinguishable from one another... Admixture between Kurdish Jews and their former Muslim host population in Kurdistan appeared to be negligible." In other words, Jews are not closely related to non-Jewish Kurds.

Nebel at al., The Y Chromosome Pool of Jews as Part of the Genetic Landscape of the Middle East, The American Journal of Human Genetics 2001.

aviv: And it is a fact that the Egyptian Copts are descended from the Egyptians of Pharaonic times and are the true 'original' Egyptians. They are genetically different than the moslem arabs.

Egyptians are an ancient admixture of north and south, with a small admixture from Arabic populations. Studies of mummies are still not extensive, but they indicate that modern Egyptians are descendants of the ancient Egyptians. Egyptian Copts are not different in this regard (though if you can provide a citation suggesting otherwise, we would be interested).

Manni et al., Y-chromosome analysis in Egypt suggests a genetic regional continuity in Northeastern Africa, Human Biology 2002.

aviv: The fact is, out of the total population of 'palestinian' arabs in Israel today, a very, very small minority can claim 'deep' roots.

We read your link, which conflated religion with ethnicity. In any case, the scientific data is clear: Palestinians have deep roots in the region.

DP111 said...

What drives the conflict is Islamic ideology - that any land once conquered by Muslims, is forever Islamic. If it ever reverts to anything else but Islamic, it is incumbent on all Muslims to return that land to Islamic control. The same dagger points to countries such as Spain and India, which were once invaded and ruled by Muslims.

Muslims will adopt any garb or identity to further the aim of extending Islamic control. Thus the only DNA that matters is the Islamic DNA.

Lily said...

Zachriel,
The majority of "Palestinians/Arabs" that carry Y-DNA that is considered Jewish (J1,J2,E1b) were forced converts,slaves and rape victim descendants.The ME was inhabited by Semitic people until the Asian,African and Greek admixtures were introduced.

"The Phoenicians were the Canaanites" was reported in the PBS description of the National Geographic TV Special on this study(Wells) entitled "Quest for the Phoenicians" that ancient DNA was included in this study as extracted from the tooth of a 2500 year-old Phoenician mummy.

A diffusion of the J1 marker took place in the 7th century CE when Arabians brought it from the ME to North Africa.

The known history of Gaza spans 4,000 years it was originally a Canaanite settlement.



We can post DNA reports all day but the fact remains Semitic peoples inhabited the ME.

The "Arabs" are comparable to US genetics.
They carry Jewish,African,Celtic,Macedonian,Greek,Asian,European and Indo-European DNA.
Their languages are derived from Semitic/Hebrew languages.
There is no archeological remains of an ancient Arab culture.

700,000 Arabs left Israel - Judah -Samara and over 1 m Jews were driven from their ancestral homes in the ME from 1939-1970 CE,loosing all property and bank accounts.

Anonymous said...

The 1911 edition of the Encyclopaedia Britannica finds the population of Palestine composed of so widely differing a group of inhabitants — whose ethnological affinities created early in the 20th century a list of no less than fifty languages that it is therefore no easy task to write concisely … on the ethnology of Palestine. In addition to the Assyrian, Persian and Roman elements of ancient times,the short-lived Egyptian government introduced into the population an element from that country which still persists in the villages. There are very large contingents from the Mediterranean countries, especially Armenia, Greece and Italy, Turkoman settlements, Persians and an Afghan colony ,tribes of Kurds,German Templar colonies ,a Bosnian colony and the Circassian settlements placed in certain centres by the Turkish government in order to keep a restraint on the Bedouins, a large Algerian element in the population still remains ,while the Sudanese have been reduced in numbers since the beginning of the 20th century.

The disparate peoples assumed and purported to be settled Arab indigenes, for a thousand years were in fact a heterogeneous community with no Palestinian identity and according to an official British historical analysis in 1920, no muslim identity either: The people west of the Jordan are not Arabs,only Arabic-speaking. The bulk of the population are fellahin. In the Gaza district they are mostly of the most mixed races.

The British census of Palestine in 1920 registered 752,048 inhabitants consisting of; 420,310 Arab Christians, 240,331 Muslim Arabs, 83,790 Palestinian Jews,7,617 persons belonging to other groups.
Bedouins were not counted in the census, but a 1930 British study estimated their number at 70,860.

A new form of Arab nationalism took root in 1920 after the Nabi Musa riots, the San Remo conference and the failure to establish the Kingdom of Syria.
The first Palestinian nationalist organisations emerged at the end of the World War I after the defeat of the Ottoman Empire. Dominated by the Nashashibi family who militated for the promotion of a singular Arabic language,culture and Islamic laws for Syria and Palestine thereby excluding the non-muslim populace.Palestine consisted of only the land now known as Jordan.
With the fall of the Ottoman Empire and the French conquest of Syria, the pan-Syrianist mayor of Jerusalem, Musa Qasim Pasha al-Husayni, said "Now, after we have to effect a complete change in our plans here. Southern Syria no longer exists. We must defend Palestine".

Anonymous said...

But, of course, Zachriel is going to keep on thumping the old DNA tub here.

My own opinion is, yes, the Palestinians are an invented people. They are, essentially, Marxist created propaganda, designed to make the world hate Israel (and America); the perfect, politically correct, uber-victims.

But, even if this were not the case. . .

The Palestinians encourage their children to blow themselves up, in the hopes of taking a few Jewish civilians with them. any "civilization" which fosters suicide bombers, and terrorism. . . well, far as I'm concerned, they're no longer a civilization---and their society is no longer worth defending.

The left will continue to defend the Palestinians, however, because they are so deeply invested in the myth of oppressed Palestine, and anti-semetism.

/IguanaDonna

Anonymous said...

The Copts, Aremenians, Kurds, etc., all have very deep roots in the Middle-East.

The Left does not champion them, however. They aren't politically correct. Their DNA, their culture, their roots, don't count.

The Left does champion the "Palestinians", because they are a useful tool against Israel, and the West.

/IguanaDonna

aviv said...

Zachriel, I'm afraid you're not as well-informed as you seem to think you are:

'http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1274378/


'In comparison with data available from other relevant populations in the region, Jews were found to be more closely related to groups in the north of the Fertile Crescent (Kurds, Turks, and Armenians) than to their Arab neighbors.'

aviv said...

Zachriel. I'm afraid you're not as well-informed as you seem to think you are.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1274378/


'In comparison with data available from other relevant populations in the region, Jews were found to be more closely related to groups in the north of the Fertile Crescent (Kurds, Turks, and Armenians) than to their Arab neighbors.'

Zachriel said...

aviv:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1274378/


"In a report published elsewhere, we recently showed that Jews and Palestinian Arabs share a large portion of their Y chromosomes, suggesting a common ancestry (Nebel et al. 2000)."

And,

"We propose that the Y chromosomes in Palestinian Arabs and Bedouin represent, to a large extent, early lineages derived from the Neolithic inhabitants of the area and additional lineages from more-recent population movements. The early lineages are part of the common chromosome pool shared with Jews (Nebel et al. 2000)."

Here's an unrooted tree.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1274378/figure/FG4/

Keep in mind that the tree is a statistical representation of populations, and does not necessarily imply ancestry. Notice the close distance between Palestinians and Ashkenazi Jews.

DP111 said...

Palestinian Arabs are Jebusites? ROFL!

Fatah Revolutionary Council member Dimitri Diliani said Gingrich's remarks reflect "the ignorant, provocative, and racist nature of Mr. Gingrich," according to WAFA.

"The Palestinian people descended from the Canaanite tribe of the Jebusites that inhabited the ancient site of Jerusalem as early as 3200 B.C.E.," Diliani said. The "Gingrich remarks are ignorant of the basic historical facts of the Middle East."

This is too good.

The only confirmed mention of the historic Jebusites is in the Hebrew Bible. That's the only source that says that the Jebusites lived around Jerusalem. This exact same source says that one of their leaders, Araunah, offered to give the Temple Mount to King David; David insisted that he pay for it, and he did - for the amount of fifty silver shekels.

So if you believe that the Palestinian Arabs are actually Jebusites, you must believe that they sold the Temple Mount to the Jews in a legal transaction.

http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/2011/12/palestinian-arabs-are-jebusites-rofl.html

Proud Jew said...

Brillian article! However, I am curious where you got the false idea that Ramallah is an Arabic name. You see, at home I have a popular book called Encyclopedia Britannica. Its entries on Israel often have a decidedly pro-Palestinian slant. However, according to this Encyclopedia, the name "Ramallah" is actually a compound word - Ram-Allah, and this is the Arabic translation of the ancient Hebrew name -
Beit E-l. So Ramallah is no more an Arabic name than Al-Khalil is. In fact, the ONLY city the Arabs ever built in our land was Ramle. So it should not be surprising that over the centuries of Arab/Muslim imperial rule over our land, the district capital was never chosen to be Jerusalem - it was always Ramle.

Sorry for the digression :)

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