Tuesday, June 29, 2010

The Tree of Zionism

Helen Thomas suggested that Jews should go back to Poland and Germany. The Turkish flotilla headed to Gaza was more specific, radioing, "Go back to Auschwitz." But both are only bubbles on the surface of the larger narrative in the Muslim world that is widely redistributed by the left and the far right, that Jews are foreign strangers to the land. On the surface this would seem to be plainly absurd. Israel is not some sort of obscure footnote in history or some forgotten fragment of the past that has to be looked up in an encyclopedia.

Both of the world's two dominant religions derive their background from Israel. David and Solomon, the kings of Israel, are considered prophets in both Islam and Christianity. Jewish history is indivisible from the history of Christianity and Islam. No believer in either religion can deny the history of the Jewish people, without also denying their own scriptures and faith. Which means that the current state of affairs in which Muslims and some Christians pretend that Israel came out of nowhere in the 1940's after the world felt guilty about the Holocaust, is an obscene bit of chutzpah.

Israel was not created after the Holocaust. It was recreated after the fall of the Ottoman Empire opened the door for peoples who had been formerly living under the Ottoman boot to rebuild and govern their own countries. The irony is that Israel is only one short entry on the list of countries that were to be created after the defeat of the Ottoman Empire, and that list includes most of the Arab world. It also includes countries that could not successfully able to gain independence at the time, such as Armenia. Zionism was simply another national liberation movement, one of many that gained new momentum after the breakup of the Ottoman and Austria-Hungarian empires.

The anti-Zionist narrative insists that Jews are foreigners because they came from the diaspora. However the very word "diaspora" highlights the fact that the Jewish returnees were members of a religious and ethnic group that had been forced to leave the region, and were now coming back. Nor were Jews unique in this regard in the post-Ottoman period. There also was and is a large Armenian diaspora around the world. Even today there are more Armenians living outside Armenia than inside it. This does not negate the rights of Armenians to their homeland or make them foreigners. There are other similar diasporas of peoples from the territory of the Ottoman Empire.  

The majority of Jews living in Israel today are refugees or the children of refugees from Muslim countries, from the USSR and from Nazi occupied Europe. That diaspora is continually ignored in favor of sneers about "Settlers from Brooklyn". Yet the same media that forcefully pushed this mischaracterization, did not apply the same standards to American Arabs who moved to the Palestinian Authority in the mid 90's (before moving back once they experienced the shakedowns and corruption of Arafat's cronies). That diaspora was somehow more legitimate than the Jewish one. This is the prejudice at the heart of the case against Israel.

It is natural for Arab Muslims to feel that they have more right to Israel, than the Jews do. Conqueror peoples tend to feel that way. It is certainly commonplace in the Muslim world. That is Turkey's attitude when it denies rights to its Kurdish minority. Iran's attitude when it denies rights to the Azeri minority. Regarding Israel, this repressive attitude finds support in the Koran, from Mohammed's persecution of the Jews, and his insistence that Islam had replaced Judaism and Christianity, and that non-Muslims had no right to govern Muslims. But
the idea that a conqueror people have more rights to a land than the indigenous inhabitants whom they usurped and oppressed, is a bizarre perversion of liberalism's own doctrines.

Yet the left goes on insisting that Zionism is racism, while applying no such standard to the Arab Nationalists they championed, from Yasser Arafat to Saddam Hussein, nor to the Islamists that they whitewash. Unlike them, Zionism has created a country in which ethnic and religious minorities have full legal and political rights. This is a unique phenomenon in a region where Islamic and Marxist fanatics have been battling it out for the chance to create repressive states in which only their dominant group has any power or influence. If the idea that distinct national and ethnic groups have the right to self-government in lands that were historically theirs, is racist-- then so is virtually every single nationalist group on the planet-- the majority of whom the left does support.

Synagogue stone, Galilee, 1800 years ago
Once again the delegitimization of Zionism is logically indefensible. If the Jews had no right to form their own state, then by what possible standard do the Arabs of the Palestine Mandate, an administrative region created in the Post WW1 environment, without regard to any unique culture and ethnicity? If the Jewish diaspora is illegitimate, then how legitimate was a movement run by the Cairo born Yasser Arafat? If Israel is a historical mistake, as some pundits insist, then what is Palestine. Or for that matter Syria and Jordan? Instead so many of Israel's critics still act like colonial mapmakers, insisting that they have the power to define which people have the rights to what land. And therefore which national liberation movements are legitimate, and which are not.

The colonial mapmakers had once upon a time made Israel's road to independence that much more difficult. Israel forced to contend not only with the rabid hostility of Islamists and Arab nationalists who refused to share the region with the country's indigenous inhabitants. This was hardly a new problem. Arab Muslims had already repressed nearly every religious and ethnic group in the region. From Mohammed's massacres and enslavement of the Jews of the Arabian Peninsula, to the plight of the Kurds, the Circassians, the Armenians, Gypsies, Copts, Zoroastrians and many others-- the campaign against Israel was an attempt by the region's ethnic and religious conqueror group to reassert its supremacy over an upstart minority. But Israel's road to national independence was also obstructed by the view of some in the British Empire that client states run by puppet Arab monarchies were more in their interest, than an independent Israel.

For this reason the larger portion of the Palestine Mandate was turned over to the rule of an imported royal family from the Arabian Peninsula, the Hashemites. The kingdom they were given was designated as Jordan, and should have served as the home for all Arabs in the territory of the Mandate. Unfortunately the Empire decided that all of the Mandate should consist of such Arab client states. For this reason Jewish immigration was curtailed, and millions of Jews died, some in Auschwitz, because the Empire thought it in their interest to turn all of Israel into another Jordan. Only when the flood of survivors after the war made the mandate unsustainable, and the United States refused to support the ongoing British occupation, did Israel gain the chance to stand on its own two feet and fight for its independence.

And even then, British officers commanded the Jordanian Arab Legion that they had trained. And when the Arab Legion ethnically cleansed the eastern part of Jerusalem, driving out the residents of the Jewish Quarter and destroying its synagogues, the Empire recognized Jordan's annexation of Jerusalem. An annexation that Israel undid in 1967 when it reunited the city. A reunification that Britain, along with the rest of Europe, refuses to recognize. And that Obama turned into an international incident when he demanded that Israel stop building housing in Jerusalem, while making no such demands of the Arab side. Once again, the bottom line is that Jews have less rights in their own country than Arab Muslims do.

The denial of our rights to our land is not new either. For thousands of years empires have been marching their way across Israel. From chariots to tanks and from spearmen to infantrymen, they have all come and gone. The Assyrian and the Babylonian, the Greek and the Roman, the Arab and the Frenchman, the Turk and the Brit. Some wiped out the Jews who had lived there. Others only oppressed them. But one way or another, the Jews survived and endured, or escaped and returned. Palestinian propagandists boast of some 50 years of resistance. Jews look back on 2500 years of resistance. Israel's rebirth is the legacy of that long struggle. Both the sudden armed clashes with Roman and Jordanian legionaries, and the more arduous struggle or working farms and planting forests. It is a struggle that can be seen today as Israeli residents care for small plots of land, even as Muslim thugs and left wing anti-Israel groups, such as "Rabbis for Human Rights" try to uproot, vandalize and destroy their farms. It is the slow patient endurance of a people of history who are not going anywhere.

This is best expressed in the apocryphal story of the Roman Emperor Hadrian, the destroyer of Jerusalem, who saw an old man planting a fig tree. "Why do you bother when you will surely not live to see its fruits," Hadrian inquired of him. "If I will not live to see them, then my children will," the old man answered. That old man was a Zionist. And across the land, fig trees are still being planted today. If the Muslim terrorist is defined by the bomb, Zionism is defined by the tree. 240 million trees have been planted in Israel. Some are torched by Arab Muslim vandals, and then more trees are planted in their place. Because while rocks and bombs may bruise or kill, it is the trees that hold the land with their roots. As the tree is seen, but the roots are not, so too Zionism is only the surface growth of the Jewish commitment to the lands of their fathers. The Tree of Zionism has been cut down by empires before, but after a time, green leaves rise again, for when a tree's roots go back thousands of years, neither axe nor torch, neither firing squad nor gas chamber can part it from its sacred earth.


Brett said...

An amazing post! You are one of the best, if not the very best, writers on modern Jewish issues. Anywhere.

Lemon said...

The nations have no leg to stand on.
Israel existed for thousands of years and Jews always lived in the land.
They always will.

Daniel Greenfield @ the Sultan Knish blog said...

thank you Brett

Yonatan said...

Wonderful post, I will be using parts of it liberally (with attribution, of course) to continue the fight online with those that would deny our right to our holy lands.

Thanks for your great work!

Love of the Land said...

Phenomenal article. This is going to be one piece that goes in the pocket before going out to do battle, as it goes to the heart of what it's all about.

Independent Patriot said...

Beautiful post. Thank you.

Anonymous said...

Amen, Daniel.

Another excellent post.


Anonymous said...

It is a rare bird that respects Israel's right to exist. Most go with the crowd and spew vile antisemitism because that is what sells. Note how popular Alex Jones and his ilk have become doing that.

Well done!

Christian Zionist

Ben said...

I've recently found this blog. I've not seen Zionism explained any better anywhere. Thank you.

Anonymous said...

"No believer in either religion can deny the history of the Jewish people, without also denying their own scriptures and faith."


According to Islam, Abraham, Isaak, Jakob, Moses, David, Solomon and Jesus were all Moslem. Any land upon which the foot of a mujahid treads is a sacred Islamic waqf for all time. Every Moslem is individually obligated to drop everything and fight in jihad to liberate any part of the Islamic waqf seized by infidels. Furthermore, according to Islam, all the world belongs to the Moslems by the word of Allah who created it. Infidels are illegitimate squatters without rights, regardless of how long they have been squatting on Islamic land.

To accept Jewish history is to DENY Islam. Apostasy is punishable by death.

Mainstream Christianity holds that the church is the new Israel and the true heir to Abraham. The New Testament replaces and supercedes the old. In it, Jesus, who is NOT a Jew according to Christian teaching, tells the Jews "you are of your father, the Devil" and calls us "the synagogue of Satan". Therefore, Jews are LITERALLY children of the Devil, illegal squatters who have no right to the Christian Holy Land.

To accept Jewish rights to Eretz Yisrael is to radically rewrite Christian doctrine, jetissoning 2000 years of Christian theological tradition. It remains to be seen whether so-called Christian Zionists will be able to do so successfully. At any rate, these represent maybe 30 million out of some 1.5 billion Christians worldwhide. Outside the United States, Christian Zionist influence is essentially nil.

Global attitudes toward the Jews are largely shaped by the religious doctrines of Christianity and Islam. Arguments are therefore irrelevant. Jews can never convince the goyim that we are right. The best we can do is terrorize the goyim into leaving us alone by ensuring that any attack on us results in the deaths of billions of goyim and, if necessary, the destruction of all life on Earth.

Daniel Greenfield @ the Sultan Knish blog said...

Muslims can claim that King David was a Muslim, but they can't deny that he was a King of Israel over the Jews. Since it is in their own Koran.

Instead they use "Muslim" as a kind of religious replacement theology, but that doesn't do anything to the history itself.

Ditto for Christian replacement theology, which again can't change the history.

What replacement theology does, is claim that since the land was given by the will of god, who now "changed his mind", Jews no longer have any right to it. But again that doesn't change the history.

Most traditional forms of Christianity did go the replacement route, but in America and now Asia, there are sizable numbers of Christians that don't insist on that theology.

The issues today however are less theological, and more political. While the Catholic and Greek Orthodox Church maintain a theological distaste for the idea of a Jewish state, for most it's the product of a secular political ideology and self-interest.

Daniel Greenfield @ the Sultan Knish blog said...

Yonatan, Calev, Patriot, Yael,

thank you all, and to see my work used for good is the best reward of all

Daniel Greenfield @ the Sultan Knish blog said...

Christian Zionist,

Alex Jones got rich feeding hate, toward America, Israel, and pretty much everyone else. Like a lot of conspiracy mongers, his big ticket item is to boil together existing conspiracies into one lump, and sell that to people.

So he'll claim that the Bilderbergs, the Rothschilds, the Rockerfellers, the Mossad movers and the Freemasons, and 500 other groups are secretly running the world (which if they were, why is he still alive?) and suckers will buy because it's easier than dealing with the hard truths that we're part of the problem

Broadwood said...

Anon - "To accept Jewish rights to Eretz Yisrael is to radically rewrite Christian doctrine, jetissoning 2000 years of Christian theological tradition."

This is categorically untrue. As is much that went before it. Replacement theology has always been a Christian heresy.

Christians who know their Bibles know that the land of Israel is promised to the children of Abraham. And the promises of Hashem are irrevocable. Jesus did indeed have harsh things to say about those who would replace true faith with empty religion, but he certainly wasn't talking about all Jews. But he was undeniably Jewish and most of the early Christians were too.

Regrettably, some church traditions have victimised Jews appallingly at times. But this was always in spite of Christian doctrine, not because of it.

Huge numbers of Christians worldwide are currently 100% behind Israel, and we see more clearly that most the spiritual roots of the ME conflict.

- Don't spit on your friends!

Anonymous said...

Great article and let me add my comment: a few years ago I heard a radio personality saying that if Jews would stand up and say, enough we will go to the moon and settle there. A huge outcry will start that it's not their place and they can't "occupy" it. It's not that the world wants Jews to go "somewhere" they want them DEAD.

Anonymous said...

Great post as always. My mornings wouldn't be complete without one of your articles.

To Broadwood: You said exactly what I've been thinking ever since reading the comments about replacement theology. I've been in a lot of different churches and I've never heard any such teaching. I'd heard of RT but didn't understand how anyone could actually believe it. In fact every church I've been a part of has taught Old Testament history as the foundation of our beliefs. How can there be a New Testament without the Old? That doesn't mean that the New replaces or supercedes the Old.

To Anonymous: The Jews were/are still God's chosen people. Just because we view Abraham as the spiritual father of our faith, does not mean that we view ourselves as his true heirs.

In the book of Romans in the New Testament, Paul, who was Jewish, stressed that God had not cast his people aside. He describes Israel as a beautiful cultivated olive tree. Christians have been grafted into that olive tree. Paul warns us not to be smug and boastful because God can just as easily ungraft us again. That is one of the best arguments I know of against the heresy of replacement theology.


Anonymous said...

Amazing post, thank you!
Am Israel Chai!

Shlomo said...

Christian Zionist and Broadwood

Christian Zionist influence is retracting in the US, where it is the strongest, Evangelicals recently distanced themselves from right wing Zionists.

Even before then, it isn't more influential than the mainline chruches which are pro Palestinian.

The General Assembly of the National Council of Churches in November 2007 approved a resolution for further study which stated that the "theological stance of Christian Zionism adversely affects justice and peace in the Middle East,

As of September 2007, listed among the Churches in America that have criticized Christian Zionism: the United Methodist Church, the Presbyterian Church (USA), and the United Church of Christ.

Daniel Greenfield @ the Sultan Knish blog said...

There are liberal and conservative leaning churches in the US. Just as there are liberal and conservative leaning Jewish denominations.

The interesting thing is that the liberal Jewish denominations imitated these same churches which are now blasting Israel.

A lot of these splits divide up regionally, but the liberal churches don't really have much of a future. Secularist religion can only go so far as a social club, which Europe is finding out.

Paul, England said...

Thank you so much, Daniel. A truly excellent article, as always. I don't know how you so consistently turn out such quality writing but I am grateful daily that you do!

Every blesssing be with you.

Paul, England.

Sholmo said...

Daniel, I agree with you.

You could say that Christian Zionism was at it's strongest in 2004-06, where they could actually influence, but with Bush outof power, that is not happening now. The trend toward supporting Israel from this group is retracting. They are turning secular or left, even as the anti Israel Christian churces grow. At the same time, as they turn left, so they reject Biblical theology as heresay, and become secular or atheistic.

After this period they choose another religon. In the US more than half of people change their faith during their lifetime.

Anyway, my point was addressed to the Christians above who said that support for Israel is strong. It is not, and even when it was, it was during the Bush era that the call for establishing Palestine was declared.
Obama's era would not have been possible, as most ofhis supporters, are secular and atheists. There is a general harsh feeling towards Christiantiy in the US, despite what the Islamist threat may be. Islam is promoted, but Christianity is not, it's seen as the hilly billy religon by the lefties. The Islamists they suppport detest their liberal policies yet they are their biggest backers.

Daniel Greenfield @ the Sultan Knish blog said...

I don't think they did much of anything to influence the Bush Administration, which felt free to take them for granted anyway. They have some influence at the congressional level, not at the white house level.

Religious shifts I suspect are not nearly as prevalent in conservative denominations.

That said the political power of that support is extremely limited. Conservative Christians have never really won any issues, even at the congressional level.

Keli Ata said...

Awesome article! In fact I read your blog when I go online in the morning before reading the local newspaper. Your wrting is elooquent and insightful.

Just a few thoughts: While the Koran and NT might state that Israel belongs to the Jews that's not the faith that they put into practice. Christian Zionists represent a large number of missionaries who want to destroy Israel spiritually. I can't help but be suspiscious as to why they are making million dollar donations to Israeli politicians.

Sounds like plain old-fashioned bribery. The want permission to set up evagelical TV statios, build churches to "spread the good news."

Islam despite what the Koran states wants occupy Israeli land.

Christianity is the theological arm of destroying Israel and Muslims are the henchmen.

It's not just replacement theology. It's replacement theology put into practice. Spiritually and materially Christian Zionists and Muslims want to destroy Israel. And I can't help but have doubts as to how long this "Christian love of the Jewish people" will last since Muslims want to convert Christians as much as Christians want to convert Muslims and just about everyone else on planet earth.

While they can try to distort what their own holy books say, the Torah is the word of Hashem and His truth stands. Nobody can deny it. Denying His word is denying Him.

(No offense to your Christian Zionist readers, but this is how I feel).

OT: the first picture with this article is incredibly beautiful! Looking at reminds me of the beautiful Avraham Friend song Aleh Katan Sheli.

Tracy W said...


If you were to pull a hundred random Jewish highschool graduates (other than religious Zionists) in Tel Aviv how many of them would be well aware of the facts explained above? And how many would agree or disagree?

I'm reading a book about post-Zionists and I'm forced to stop every couple of pages or so to recover.

The things those ISRAELI JEWS say about their country, Zionists, pioneers, and even Middle Ages Diaspora Jews is downright SICK.

Daniel, if any teacher were to utter such hateful garbage in the west they'd be dismissed!

It seems that the only country where an Arab or Jewish educator is free to spew extreme anti-Jewish venom is in Israel!

So here is my second question:


Why has such a persecuted nation allowed education to be taken over by hateful, treasonous anti-Zionists?

I can't believe that the public does not know what has been going on for decades. Those professors publish their ideas for the whole world to read. And they have transformed their captive audience of young students into the leftists or indifferent Israelis of today.

The greatest asset of a country is the minds and the hearts of the young. Israel has allowed the depraved left to brainwash its children.

While Zionists spend their efforts explaining to the world the righteousness of Israel, Israeli teachers and professors are undermining all your work.

Why haven't they been stopped yet? Does anyone care enough to stop them? And prosecute them for disseminating lies and hatred?


Here is one of the mildest examples on the book I mentioned about the anti-Zionist left:

Adi Ophir, editor of a journal (financed by the Ministry of Education at that time) that cultivated "new history" trends (the denial of Jewish history), stated that Israel is "the garbage heap of Europe".

As quoted on "The Jewish State" by Yoram Hazony, page 12.

For more information on the sick and treasonous activities of Israeli academics, go to:

Daniel Greenfield @ the Sultan Knish blog said...


I photoshopped that picture, it didn't come out too badly.

There's a lot of groups within the evangelical world, some are missionary oriented and that is a real problem. Unfortunately it's hard for most Jews to distinguish different groups and denominations.

Daniel Greenfield @ the Sultan Knish blog said...


teachers in the West routinely say these things and worse. What is happening in Israel is an outgrowth of what is going on with the left in first world countries in general

academic campuses tend to skew left these days, and so do many professors, particularly in the history and literature departments

rooting all that out is necessary, but requires fighting a culture war

Tracy W said...


You write: "What is happening in Israel is an outgrowth of what is going on with the left in first world countries in general."

It seems that the movement to delegitimize Zionism AMONG JEWS started way back, even before the creation of modern Israel. And the culprits were the stuck-up German Jews.

They were the ones who brought their anti-Zionist and pro-Arab ideas to Israel. They were the educated elite who filled posts at the first Israeli universities, the courts, and it all went downhill from there. They were the ones that nurtured the myth of Jewish colonizer and Arab victim ... the ideological ancestors of today's pro-Arab Left.

They precede by decades the widespread anti-Israel campaign in western campuses.

But regardless of their origins and influences - WHY do ordinary Israelis still allow rabid anti-Zionist academics to get away with such treasonous and offensive activities, often financed by the same State of Israel that they hate so much.

I ask these questions because I'd like to understand.

Israel is and probably always be at war.

It's nothing less than suicidal insanity to allow enemies or friends of enemies to entrench themselves in the country's educational institutions, media and courts and undermine the state and incite such hatred against the country and its people.

Daniel Greenfield @ the Sultan Knish blog said...

the problems really kicked in with the Israeli version of the New Left in the 70's and 80's

the rising power of the Likud gave them more influence among the left of center, who would have had much less tolerance for the anti-zionist narrative when Labor was in power

"WHY do ordinary Israelis still allow rabid anti-Zionist academics to get away with such treasonous and offensive activities, often financed by the same State of Israel that they hate so much."

Same reason US academics get away with using A People's History of the United States as a textbook, for example.

It's the left's agenda to demonize and distort the history of the nations they live in as colonialist, imperialist and evil

Tracy W said...


Tracy W said...


Tracy W said...


One thing that disturbs me throughout this discussion is your insistence in comparing Israel with the West.

Westerners can indulge all they want in statements disparaging of their countries, and even in unpatriotic activities, because their right to exist is never questioned.

Westerners don't have the memory of a recent major genocide, while vicious calls for their complete annihilation continue to be heard all around them.



"the Israeli version of the New Left in the 70's and 80's" that you refer to sounds to me like children playing at being someone else.

It's not as if Israelis don't know the extreme dangers they live with. So what kind of powerful brainwashing has been inflicted on them that they are embracing and defending their enemies on their way to another Holocaust? Or failing to react effectively to the disastrous policies of this and past governments?

I'm willing to dismiss leftist intellectuals as being hopelessly in love with themselves, their own words and social status.

But what about regular people's common sense? Why don't parents picket schools, universities, demanding the sacking of those educators or the creation of new universities with staff who are SANE and patriotic?

What has happened to the people?

Anonymous said...

Even Arabs know and accept that the same way the Arabian peninsula has been the land of Arab nation, the children of Ishmael, since thousands of years ago, Land of Israel has been the land of Jews for thousands of years. Arabs don't have a problem accepting this fact. of course in the past while they had lots of power and conqured and occupied many countries and turned them into Islamic countries their mind set was different but soon after their failure in their Arab nationalist (racist) wars agaisnt Israel they were ready to sit back,leave Israel alone and mind their own business. like Egypt and Jordan. the problem is with English and other European emprialists who have been trying hard for many years to force Arabs and Moslems to belive Israel, the land of Jews should belong to them. unfortunatley they have succeded in doing so and keeping the region in their own hands. whenever they want to start chaos in the region they only have to incitee some simple minded brain washed Arab or Moslem to attack Israel.

Shiloh said...

Just when things look bad Tracy, don't worry. It will be just fine.

Daniel Greenfield @ the Sultan Knish blog said...


Israel doesn't exist in isolation. Its situation is graver, but it's influenced by the same trends and the same cold winds blowing through the West.

All this is connected. That has always been my point.

As for the people, again go and try picketing Yale over what they teach. Do you think you'll have much luck. And if not, why do you think Israeli parents will have more luck picketing Hebrew University, which in any case is mainly funded by American donors.

Winning a culture war is not easy and that's a fact.

2sloe said...

The General Assembly of The "National Council of Churches" is a deceptively titled group of denominations which have departed from scripture 'across the board', not only regarding Israel.
DG was kind in calling them "Left".

Anyway, what defines "support for Israel being STRONG"? or "Not strong"?
It is strong amongst scripture-studied and believing christians.

Is not "A little" WITH G-d stronger than "A lot" withOUT HIM?

Support for Israel will always be strong, for her strength is in The LORD.

Shlomo said...


You say that they are departed from scripture, and they say the same about you. The fact is most of Christianity shares THEIR belief, the Christian Zionists are seen as having departed from scripture, and if you see the trend is towards Christian Zionism DECLINING not growing. It only thrives amongst the blue collar, or where poverty is.

As Daniel said, they have no real influence anywhere and from our side as another member said above, they do spend millions on missionising in Israel which is causing problems in the Charedi community.

Daniel I disagree when you say Israel is like the west. Polls in western countries put Israel, Iran and North Korea as being enemies of civilisation, aside from in the US, but even that is changing under Obumber Huseein. Do you think Obumber will be out at the next election? I hope so, what can we do to bring that about? Write some thoughts on it please. You usually hit the nail on the head.

yamit33 said...

Daniel Greenfield @ the Sultan Knish blog said...

It is the slow patient endurance of a people of history who are not going anywhere.

There is a story in the Talmud of and old person, Honi, who was observed planting a carob tree. When asked if he really expected to live long enough to consume the fruits of his labor, he replied: "I was born into a world flourishing with ready pleasures. My ancestors planted for me, and now I plant for my children..."
We Jews have several historical parallels to our general situation today. Specifically the book of Maccabees. That resulted in a bloody civil war of holocaust proportions. Hanukkah is a celebration of religious Zionists of their day defeating the assimilationist (liberal) Jews
of their time.

Who knows? It might repeat in our time.

yamit33 said...

Rationalism and Jewish History is like water and oil.

Down with rationalism!!! It is self defeating pessimism and quite depressing. Jewish History is not rational. Israels history is not rationally logical.

Rational people could not imagine that beliefs protect, yet that’s how the Jews survived—against all odds. Rational people told Moses it was unsafe to leave Egypt, and then wanted to return. Rational Jews agreed with rational scouts that Canaan was unconquerable. Rational Jerusalemites advised the king to surrender to the Babylonians. Rational, progressive Jews submitted to Antiochus and ate pork—until the Maccabees arose. Rational Jews understood that there is nothing wrong with Christianity, and converted. That Germans are a civilized people, and did not flee to Palestine. That Zionism is utopia, and stayed in Russia. That Turks and Christians would never concede Jerusalem to Jews, and accepted Uganda. That a Jewish militia cannot win against Arab armies, and urged us to abstain from proclaiming a Jewish state. That Israel was lost in 1973, and urged capitulation. That we can't survive without American and gentile friends help.

Rationalism is the enemy of the Jews. It's time to return to our natural and irrational optimism.

"Thus declared HaShem, Master of Legions, saying, 'This [Jewish] people has said: "The time has not yet come!" [But I say:] "It is time for the Temple of HaShem to be rebuilt!"'" (Haggai 1:2)

ahoovah said...

Brillant , Thank You

Broadwood said...


"Anyway, what defines "support for Israel being STRONG"? or "Not strong"?
It is strong amongst scripture-studied and believing christians.

Is not "A little" WITH G-d stronger than "A lot" withOUT HIM?

Support for Israel will always be strong, for her strength is in The LORD."

Amen, amen.

And Keli:

"It's not just replacement theology. It's replacement theology put into practice. Spiritually and materially Christian Zionists and Muslims want to destroy Israel. And I can't help but have doubts as to how long this "Christian love of the Jewish people" will last since Muslims want to convert Christians as much as Christians want to convert Muslims and just about everyone else on planet earth."

There is a profound difference between inviting someone to share your own faith and wanting them dead if they don't.

Jewish and Christian prophecy indicates that Israel, the physical nation, is the 'apple of G_d's eye', and it's re-establishemnt is a prophetic milestone. No Bible-believing Christian would ever deny that. I repeat: Replacement theology is an unbiblical heresy.

Please allow yourself to believe you have more friends than you could know.

Daniel Greenfield @ the Sultan Knish blog said...


most Christians yes, most Christians in the US, no.

the exact figures are hard to pin down, but they would seem to be growing, as opposed to many of the liberal churches which are actually shrinking or tearing themselves apart, see the episcopalians

Daniel Greenfield @ the Sultan Knish blog said...


it's a difference, but not a world of difference. A collective campaign to wipe out a different religion through non-violent means is still a pretty ugly thing

Keli Ata said...

Broadwoood--writing in general and not to you specifically, if Christians really want to share our faith they can either embrace the Noachide laws or convert (though conversion is discouraged.)

But to do that requires a fundamental change in one's belief as to the nature of G-d and absolute oneness of G-d as opposed to a compound one (ie. trinity).

If you are unfamiliar with the Noachide movement there are plenty of sites online.

Christians on the whole believe they are grafted in to Judaism but do not share these basic beliefs. And for some reason are defensive if not downright offensive when it comes to our sabbath (though the Sabbath is a gift to the Jews only and Noachides are forbidden to observe it in the same way Jews do).

Christians seeking to graft themselves and their religion into Judaism actually want to dissolve Judaism. Christianity shares little in common with Judaism. Yes, you include a distorted version of the Tanach ("old testament") in their bible, the interpretation of that first and lasting covenant if diametrically in opposition to Judaism.

"Open my heart to Your Torah, and my soul will pursue Your commandments."

I hope Hashem will open your heart to His true Torah, though you are, of course, free to believe what you will.


Yamit--I love your comments:) do you have a blog? If not, you really should.

Avi said...

This is a good blog. Good article.
Some of the comments are misguided though especially the xtian ones who want to reassure us.


The Islamists don't want to kill us because of our religon, they want the land. There is a difference. Xtian Zionists support us, but if we didn't have weapons, they'd be attacking us, as xtianity alwasy has (crusaders). The sweet pill you offer as a comparison doesn't gel, because Islam did have a tolerant attitude if second class towards Jews, xtianity always tried to kill us. I believe they support us now as friends only because xtianity can no longer kill us to convert nor take our land or they will face 300 nukes.

That is one difference that xtian zionists like to say, my guess is because they want to scare us, or convince us "accpet our support". The truth is, just like Greenfield said, it's ugly and not acceptable. Sorry for the harsh words, but a spiritual death is worse than a physical one. It has no beneficial advantage for Israel in that xtian Zionist party (bush) called for a 2 state solution, which is no different to the liberals. We do however have to put up with xtian influence in Israel which is not good, as they prey on vulnerabless.


Thanx. Good articles. Glad I found you. xtian Zionism is falling not rising. Do you think that it ever did anything good? I've yet to see anything good come of it.

Christian Zionist influence retracting
By Daoud Kuttab
December 24, 2007
Why Evangelical Support for Israel is shrinking?

Anonymous said...

Very moving, Sultan, thank you.

yamit33 said... “Down with rationalism!!! It is self defeating pessimism and quite depressing. Jewish History is not rational. Israels history is not rationally logical. Rationalism is the enemy of the Jews. It's time to return to our natural and irrational optimism.”
:) Actually, yamit33, Jewish history is absolutely logical. One can say this with the most rational optimism.
Márcia Leal

Broadwood said...

Keli and Daniel,

I'm not here to pick a fight with anyone about their beliefs, I'm just trying to set the record straight about the attitude of Christians (or at least, the ones I know) to Jews and Israel. One's Jewishness is a birthright, whether one practices or not, and whether you are Hassidic, Sephardim or Davidic, etc. There are also Messianic Jews, who accept the Christian view of Jesus and the New Testament, but hold to their Jewish ethnicity and heritage very strongly. There are also Christians with no Jewsih ethnicity who observe Torah and the Jewish Festivals.

It is true, we have Jesus's direct command to spread the 'Good News' - I make no apology for that, but it is NOT tantamount to wanting to 'assimilate' or 'wipe out' Judaism.

But from our point of view (no offence intended)it is our conviction that Jesus completes the revelation you already have and have faithfully guarded for centuries. You are free to make your own decision about that, but how could we respect and love our elder brothers and sisters in faith if we did not share it with you? But I'm sorry you have some insensitive Christian witness in Israel. That's not how it should be.

An anonmymous poster above reminded us that the Biblical Christian view is that we, as Gentile beleivers, are 'grafted in' to Israel, by the grace of Hashem, not the other way around.


2sloe said...

Yes there are big theological disagreements between zionist christians vs others, just as between various Jewish mind-sets.
This makes it even more difficult for you & I to understand each other. Such is the state of mankind.

"...Christian Zionism... only thrives amongst the blue collar, or where poverty is.":
Ouch, but thanks for your honesty. That is a stereotype. Not true. Zionism is highest among christians who most highly value studying scripture, straight through everything from Genesis to Malachi (aprx 876 pgs) as well as our new testament (aprx 270 pgs). So just in terms of time-spent in your scriptures, we are influenced to love Israel.

"As Daniel said, they have no real influence anywhere": I can't know.
We are very vocal for Israel.
but living faith is not all about having influence over others. It is first about putting ones' self under the influence of G-d.
He defined Israels' borders, and to always remain the same.

Daniel Greenfield @ the Sultan Knish blog said...

This article was not meant to raise any Jewish/Christian debates. That was not its purpose.

I don't tell anyone what their religious beliefs should be, and in turn the same reasonable courtesy is expected.

There's a good deal of ignorance on both sides of the other, which is the usual course of things.

Christian Zionism is not of the "lower classes", nor does it exist out of fear. It's more the product of biblical literalism. Denominations that take the bible literally, also tend to be more pro-Israel. Liberal denominations who view everything as a metaphor for social justice, won't see it that way.

The same split exists in Judaism, with biblical literalism correlating with an attachment to the land of Israel.

Forcible conversions generally ended in the 19th century with the Mortara case and that involved the Catholic church. As an institutional situation anyway.

On the other side, there's no such thing as Davidic or Messianic Judaism, those are both subsets of Christianity, most of whose members are not even ethnically Jewish, but make some sort of effort at integrating Hebraic elements into their worship. But that's not Jewish anymore, than the use of a collection plate and an organ in Reform synagogues makes them Christian.

Jewishness is both genetic and spiritual, they're both part of what makes the Jewish people. Christians are free to hold whatever beliefs they like, but please understand it's not "sharing", it's undermining someone else's religion.

Finally I didn't say that Christian Zionists have no influence, but that there is very little influence at the foreign policy level in terms of practical politics, but a certain amount of congressional influence. Considering that US politics is more culturally liberal, that is not surprising.

2sloe said...

As for myself, I was replying to Shlomo about christian zionist views, not trying to do more than that.
I felt no offence, but some eye-opening humor, even if (somewhat) at my own expense.
You were only in quotes due to the context of his comment, & I didn't take that statement as being yours.
I come here to learn, because your information and skills are meaningful. I have also enjoyed the dialogue with others, it leads to a bit more understanding between individuals.
We each speak for ourselves, and I think both christian & jew can only somewhat narrowly reference others.

Avi, re: "...Xtian Zionists support us, but if we didn't have weapons, they'd be attacking us,..." Oh my goodness! Such a broad view of people is SO sad.
That would be just like attacking G-d.

Daniel Greenfield @ the Sultan Knish blog said...

Yes I'm aware it was a quote, I was addressing the original attribution.

2sloe said...

DG, I don't understand what you mean by "there's no such thing as Davidic .... Judaism", unless it is exactly the same as current messianic judaism.
Are there differences of opinion whether scriptures, subsequent to David's time as king, were interpreted as also being prophetic- or not prophetic?
I'm just trying to understand, and could move my questions elsewhere if you don't want them here.
Thanks either way.

Daniel Greenfield @ the Sultan Knish blog said...

It's not about the historical King David. I'm saying there's no Jewish religious movement called Davidic. Just as there's no movement called Solomonic, etc.

Keli Ata said...

Broadwood: I did not intend to pick a fight. I was just responding to your response.

The point of the article is that nobody can deny that Israel belongs to the Jewish people. People can try to deny it, it doesn't make their denials true.

That's all.

Keli Ata said...

Ahoovah! It's good to see you here again. Long time no see.

Tracy W said...

Dear Daniel, several comments back I said that parents should picket schools and universities where educators teach anti-Israel and anti-Jewish concepts.

You offered the following reply:

"As for the people, again go and try picketing Yale over what they teach. Do you think you'll have much luck. And if not, why do you think Israeli parents will have more luck picketing Hebrew University, which in any case is mainly funded by American donors. Winning a culture war is not easy and that's a fact".

I generally defer to you because you know A LOT more than I do, but this morning I saw a news item that tends to vindicate me a little (not quite since the situation is reversed, with leftists being the offended party).

YNET reports that a Ben Gurion professor's course has been cancelled and the professor dismissed because he gave an opinion that allegedly offended the homosexual students.

I quote YNET:

A bioethics course taught by Dr. Yeruham Leavitt at Ben-Gurion University was canceled after he implied that homosexuality was a flaw that could be "contained", Ynet learned Sunday.

About a month ago he received a letter saying the course had been cancelled due to a "hurtful and inappropriate" remark he made in class

Some students who were offended by the remarks complained to the university's faculty committee.

Ynet obtained a letter in which Prof. Riad Agbaria, head of the Clinical Pharmacology Department, confirmed that Leavitt's contract has been terminated.

"There is no room for personal opinions that offend some of the students," the letter read.
Dr. Leavitt told Ynet, "My embarrassing dismissal from Ben-Gurion University constitutes a severe violation of basic rights, including the right to dignity, academic freedom and freedom of expression.",7340,L-3914683,00.html

As you see, Daniel, it's not the lack of public pressure that keeps Israel-bashing and Jewish-bashing professors in Israeli universities.

It is the way Israelis gave in to leftist's dominance in all sectors influencing public opinion.

And it's fatalism. A sense of helplessness. The same that allows the Netanyahu government to act on behalf of the government of the USA. The same that may allow the complete dismantling of Israel before its 100th birthday.

The anti-Israel and anti-Jewish teachings of Israeli professors should offend not only nationalists but ALL Jews. And yet, nobody has dared to mount a serious campaign to counteract the degrading and OFFENSIVE comments made by so many Israeli professors.

This professor, who happens to be a SETTLER, made just one politically incorrect move and he's OUT.

(He may have been set up too.)

This decision should be used as a legal precedent!

Will anyone AT ALL declare to be offended by anti-Israel and anti-Jewish professors and demand their dismissal?

And will anyone ever legally confront the state of Israel for its double standards? Such as being liable for saying anything that might offend the Arabs but being free to use the vilest of expressions to refer to Jews?

Some of the most outspokenly anti-Israel and anti-Jewish media and professors in the whole planet are in Israel, of all places!!!

Daniel Greenfield @ the Sultan Knish blog said...

I'm sure you know how political correctness works. Anyone who offends a liberal gets fired. Anyone offended by a liberal is told to go to hell.

Anonymous said...

In Islam it states several times that the Qur'an confirms which was given in the Torah and Injil. In apartheid Saudi where no Jew is allowed in and no Bible or New Testament is allowed, how can they possibly know if the Qur'an is confirming what has preceded it???

However in Europe and the free (by the skin of its teeth) west, Muslims DO have access to what preceded the Qur'an and yet can't put 2 and 2 together. All the prophets are Jewish, they say they revere them, then please have the courtesy/plain common sense to read them!

Ezekiel 35-36, my fave at the moment, as yes, we will all rejoice when YY slaps them all daft, we've all had them up to here (me pointing to my forehead). It's not Israel saying 'these two nations, these 2 countries will be mine, we will take possession of them" and yes YY is there and yes, He's heard all the blasphemous talk against the mountains of Israel - yes, the name Israel mentioned by a JEW 2,650ish years ago, and presumed to be re-established again.....just like that, amazing, it's as if the Torah's right or something. and now 36 what a prophecy, how do Muslims just not get that it's them (and the secular nations in cahoots with them) he's talking about? The enemy boasts about the ancient high places being theirs now, they love malicious talk and they love to slander Jews - Muslims, read on, please, for your own sakes. You say you revere the prophets, read them.

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