Tuesday, March 02, 2010

Muslim Rights and Wrongs

Over the last decade the treatment of Muslims has dominated discussions about human rights in Europe, the United States and Israel. Whether it's Jihadis seized on the battlefields of Afghanistan, domestic terrorists plotting death and destruction in London, Ramallah or Jersey City, asylum seekers from the coasts of Australia to England, or your regular old Abdul or Hamid who may be a law abiding citizen or a fanatical mass murderer in waiting-- the Western human rights debate over the last 10 years comes down to the treatment of Muslims.

But is that all there is to the story? While left wing "human rights organizations" such as Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International (which even went the trendy route of appointing a Muslim Secretary General) have dived in to the business of protecting the rights of Muslims in the West with both feet, very little attention is paid to the rights of Hindus, Jews, Christians, Buddhists and others living in Muslim countries.

While the media plays up a real estate dispute between Jews and Muslims in Jerusalem as a major human rights story, the last Jews of Yemen are being evacuated after one of the community's few remaining leaders was murdered by a Yemeni Air Force Pilot who ordered him to convert to Islam or die. Yemen in turn fined the pilot and offered to build the remaining Jews their own ghetto for "their own protection". Naturally they chose to leave instead. And this is the life they described behind the "Sand Curtain" of Islam;

A spokesman for the Jewish Federations, who met the Yemeni Jews shortly after they arrived in America, said they described a climate of fear in Yemen. Jewish men had to wear Arab headdresses and wrap their peyot behind their ears to hide their identity. Women wore burkas. “They didn’t have any visible institutions like synagogues,” he said. “They had to meet in people’s apartments.” For the first time, the new immigrants have been hanging mezuzot on the outside of their doors instead of the inside, and openly celebrating festivals like Succot.

Yemeni Jews had been fleeing the country since the 19th century, a flow that only intensified when the Yemeni government began seizing orphaned Jewish children and converting them to Islam in the 20's (one such child was the President of Yemen). After the creation of the State of Israel, the majority of Yemen's Jews fled the tide of Muslim violence. And now that last handful of what had been a community of tens of thousands is departing.

But what makes the story of Yemen so damning is that it actually is fairly tolerant by Muslim standards. And that the Jews of Yemen are only a small part of the more than 800,000 Jewish refugees from Muslim lands in the Middle East whose plight is ignored, while the media insists on photographing toothless Palestinian Muslim Arabs posing with housekeys.

The 800,000 Jewish refugees are themselves only part of the story. The Armenian genocide and the Assyrian Holocaust both offer eloquent testimony to how Muslims treat non-Muslim minorities. As do the modern day persecutions of the Zoroastrians in Iran and the Christian Copts in Egypt, who are denied basic rights and whose daughters are routinely kidnapped for forced Islamic conversion.

While Muslims incessantly shout about their "rights" in Europe, America and Israel-- it might be a good idea to take a look at how non-Muslim guest workers are treated in Muslim countries.

As much as 90 percent of Dubai is run by foreign guest workers who slave away for the Emirs. Thousands of them die annually in construction work to erect the magnificent skyscrapers designed by foreign architects and rented to foreigners that decorate Dubai's skyline.

As much as 40 percent of Saudi Arabia consists of foreign guest workers who do everything for the fat bearded sons of Mahomet, but wipe their behinds. And in some cases even that as well. Saudi Arabia is built on the foreign oil companies they seized, built by American and British oil workers, serviced by Asian maids and African laborers. The latter have their passports seized by their employers, which transforms them into slaves of their employers without the right to even leave the country. The Saudis have built such a nightmarish slave state that it is one of the few rich countries in the world where guest workers actually try to get themselves deported. Without success.

The Saudi and Dubai slave states are all the more relevant because so many of the organizations clamoring for the rights of Muslims in the West are either Saudi fronts, such as CAIR, or Saudi funded, such as Human Rights Watch. And just as the USSR lectured America on civil rights while running the Gulags, Saudi Arabia oversees a nightmarish Islamic oligarchy in which non-Muslims have no rights, while demanding through its front groups that America throw open the doors to Guantanamo Bay, stop detaining Muslims for suspicious behavior, that Europe open wide for Islamic immigration and ban any criticism of Islam, and that Israel turn over land to terrorist organizations again funded by the Saudis.

But until the Muslim world gives the same rights to non-Muslims as to Muslims, the same rights to women as to men... Muslims have no right to make such demands of anyone else. When religious minorities can live in peace and security in the Muslim world, only then can Muslims issue demands to non-Muslim countries.

If Muslims abroad were treated as they treat others at home, they would enjoy few rights, their passports would be seized compelling them to work indefinitely, they would be murdered at random and their attackers let off with a fine, their children would be seized to be converted to another religion and their women would be jailed for not complying with local mores. Instead Muslims enjoy legal equality in their host countries, even as they spread the poison of an Islamist ideology that calls for the murder of non-Muslim. And sometimes act on it.

Not only are Muslims treated far better than they treat others by America, Europe, Israel and the other non-Muslim countries that they routinely malign for "oppressing" them-- but they are treated far better than they themselves act while abroad.

Despite all the talk about hate crimes against mosques, Muslims abroad have committed far more violent attacks on other people's houses of worship, than have been committed against theirs. Muslim rapes far outweigh any rapes of Muslims. Muslim terrorist attacks on non-Muslims far outweigh any terrorist attacks carried out against Muslims.

That is the real portrait of Muslim ingratitude and atrocities, thinly veiled by the endless barrage of "Religion of Peace" propaganda, and the squealing by Saudi front groups bewailing the fate of Muslims living high on the hog in Sydney, Paris or Haifa, while spinning their favorite anthem of Death to Everyone Who Isn't Us.

Muslim countries invite in non-Muslim tourists only to jail (Dubai) and murder (Egypt) them, despising non-Muslims and yet greedy for their gold. They rely on slave labor and yet fund lawfare and propaganda campaigns denouncing the US detention of the same Taliban throatslitters that they funded as well. Egypt, where a third of the children are malnourished, Saudi Arabia, where even half the Muslim population has less legal rights than a dog (correction: dogs are actually forbidden in Saudi Arabia) or Pakistan, where it is easier for rapists to convict their victim of adultery, than for the victim to convict them of rape-- all somehow manage to find the time to denounce the human rights of non-Muslim countries whose level of jurisprudence they couldn't reach with all the skyscrapers in Dubai.

Perhaps before Muslim bleat about their rights, they should first begin honoring the rights of non-Muslims.


Following Him said...

I try to live my life trusting that God is still in control of the world He created. But knowing that all you have said today is a very true reality, it sure looks like the creator has left the building just like Elvis. And guess what ... I don't blame Him.

Lemon said...

They are a confused and angry people. Nothing good comes from that combination.

Fatima said...


I am a Muslim and I know many like myself, who are appalled at Saudi Arabia's and the Gulf's treatment of foreigners.

I agree with what you say totally. I'm all for minority rights being respected in Saudi Arabia and other states, but do remember, most of what they do is not Islamic. Arab culture is not necessarily Islamic, if it were, minority rights would be respected.

Can you provide a source confirming that yemeni Jews were forced to convert to Islam, by who? Forced conversions are not even recognised, though at times, I am aware they went on, but it was the exception rather than the rule.

Also give a source, confirming the Yemeni President was one of those forced to convert.

The solution to ending the tyranny in Saudi Arabia lies with USA. It is America that is supporting the despotic regimes who are all put there by the colonials. They pose as an Islamic regime, but they are not.

In an Islamic regime, and not necessarily a Caliphate, Islamic rules prevail over cultural and tribal ones. In Saudi and Gulf it is tribal not Islamic. Even Islamic law is twisted to fit into this. But this is only a temporary phase.

They will all go soon anyway, corrupt dictatorships won't last in the Middle East, look at saddams regime. As soon as his secular baathist regime was toppled people voted for Islamic parties.

You may THINK that Saudi Arabia is an Islamic society, but its not. It's a corrupt dictatorship, Islamic law stipulates the ruler has to be by public consentual vote.

Eventually, all these corrupt dictatorships along with America will fall. You will see in due time.

Traditionally, Islamic societies have been the most tolerant, because The Quran gives rights to minorities, which these corrupt overlords don't care about, though they pretend to.

Shiloh said...

Great article Daniel. So to was the one about moral disarmament. Sadly though, even we error in disarming those whom haShem sends. Might ring a bell, no?

Daniel Greenfield @ the Sultan Knish blog said...


Arab culture made Islam what it is. There is no Islam without Arab culture. And Arab culture today continues to play a major role in shaping what Islam is today, since the Arab middle east, particularly Saudi Arabia and Egypt remain the centers of Islamic learning and jurisprudence today.

The solution does not lie with the United States. Overthrowing the Saudi kingdom would most likely to lead to an even more Islamist regime. Just as it did in Iran. Just as it would in Egypt. Such a regime would, following in the footsteps of the Taliban or Hamas, be even more intolerant of minorities. Consider the Sikhs being beheaded by the Taliban for refusing to convert to Islam or the Christians persecuted in Gaza. Or Egypt for that matter.

Can you name a single Islamic country that has more human rights than America? Can you name one that respects religious freedoms more?

Unless you can do that, then your wonderful Islamic society is just a myth. If Islamic law made for a better society, then Islam would never have fallen apart into infighting and war in the first place. And where Islamists have taken over promising true Islamic law, they have created hell on earth. Over and over again.

Islamic societies have not been tolerant and are not tolerant. They are brutal, cruel and corrupt. They have fallen and will fall again, until Muslims learn the lessons of their own history.

The seizure and forced conversion of Jewish orphans was commonplace in the Middle East.

You can read more about it here

and about the President of Yemen here

The Yemeni government disputes whether this was actually the President or his brother. Either way the point is the same.

Anonymous said...

Islam means peace, love , tolerance...
On which planet?

tanstaafl said...

Fatima -

This is some of what the Qur'an says about kuffars (unbelievers) -

Quran 9:5 "Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war."

9:112 "The Believers fight in Allah's cause; they slay and are slain, kill and are killed."

8:39 "So fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief [non-Muslims]) and all submit to the religion of Allah alone (in the whole world)."

8:65 "O Prophet, urge the faithful to fight. If there are twenty among you with determination they will vanquish two hundred; if there are a hundred then they will slaughter a thousand unbelievers, for the infidels are a people devoid of understanding."

9:38 "Believers, what is the matter with you, that when you are asked to go forth and fight in Allah's Cause you cling to the earth? Do you prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? Unless you go forth, He will afflict and punish you with a painful doom, and put others in your place."

47:4 "When you clash with the unbelieving Infidels in battle (fighting Jihad in Allah's Cause), smite their necks until you overpower them, killing and wounding many of them. At length, when you have thoroughly subdued them, bind them firmly, making (them) captives. Thereafter, either generosity or ransom (them based upon what benefits Islam) until the war lays down its burdens. Thus are you commanded by Allah to continue carrying out Jihad against the unbelieving infidels until they submit to Islam."

Do you deny the Holy Qur'an?

Fatima said...

by the way, Sultan, this is not true,

"Muslim rapes far outweigh any rapes of Muslims.. "

What do you base this on? The few highly publicised rapes in Sweden etc. by Islamphobes, doesnt' comprise a rape epidemic.

Regarding the Yemeni forced conversions, it doesn't say much about the circumstances that led to the orphans being orphaned. Note, they were orphans, not children snatched from their parents, thus their being raised Muslim was a consequence of their being adopted.

The Islamic state has a duty to orphans, to care for them.

Without knowing what led to them being orphaned, or why the state gave them to Muslims, needs to be made clear before you lay blame anywhere.

That sect is a Shia Zaydi one, but in any case, the question is if the state took the orphans obviously they'd be raised as Muslims if placed with Muslim families.

If i adopt a child, who is an orphan i'd raise him/her a Muslim.

I'd like to know more about how they came to this legislation and howit was carried out. Did the children not have any family? If the state took them against the will of the family then it was wrong, but if nobody wanted those children, then whomever adopted them, cannot be expected to raise them as Jews if they're jewish themselves, that's only common sense.

would you adopt a child and raise him a Christian, even if his parents were?

the article itself doesn't have the answers to these questions.

As for the Yemeni President being of Jewish descent, that itself isn’t anything newsworthy in the Middle East. Gaddafi’s mother was Jewish, lots of promient Gulf families are Jewish in origin, Bahrain’s Kanoo family for example, and Ahmedinejad is also said to be of Jewish descent.

Daniel Greenfield @ the Sultan Knish blog said...

... and Sydney and London. And Norway.

"Two out of three persecutions for rape in Oslo are immigrants with a non-Western background and 80 percent of the victims are Norwegian women."

And I wonder why that is...

"In Australia's New South Wales Supreme Court in December 2005, a visiting Pakistani rapist testified that his victims had no right to say no, because they were not wearing a headscarf.

And earlier this year Australians were outraged when Lebanese Sheik Faiz Mohammed gave a lecture in Sydney where he informed his audience that rape victims had no one to blame but themselves. Women, he said, who wore skimpy clothing, invited men to rape them.

A few months earlier, in Copenhagen, Islamic mufti and scholar, Shahid Mehdi created uproar when – like his peer in Australia – he stated that women who did not wear a headscarf were asking to be raped.

And with haunting synchronicity in 2004, the London Telegraph reported that visiting Egyptian scholar Sheik Yusaf al-Qaradawi claimed female rape victims should be punished if they were dressed immodestly when they were raped"

Yes that noble Islamic law again.

Regarding Yemen, if you had read the links I cited, the children had family, they were forcefully seized by the state. Despite efforts by other family members and their community to take them.

This was a law specifically targeted by Muslims at the children of non-Muslim religious minorities.

It was a typical attempt by Muslim rulers to impose cultural genocide on their non-Muslim subjects.

But you insist on defending a policy that you would be outraged by, if say India had a policy of seizing Muslim orphans in order to raise them as Hindus, only demonstrates the truth of my article.

Anonymous said...

to fatima

if a muslim rapes non-muslim it is not a rape,...
You want us to believe in what you think about yourself (muslims). Let us have our own opinion based on your behaviour as mulisms.
Do not adopt the orphan who parents you just killed ...

Fatima said...

No i don't deny the Quran but the verses you brought are not from the Quran, they're distorted with altered meanings. To understand the proper verses go to an Islamic site, and look them up.

Also, you cannot understand the QUran (revealed over 22 years) without the accompanying Haddeeth, (oral law) Much like you cannot understand the Torah without Talmud. Every verse has a history behind it, and mountains of pages that you have to learn. As i said go to the proper sources and learn.


The rape stats from Frontpagemag, a known Islamophobic magazine have no credence,

proper sources for rape stats would show comparable figures for rape in other communites, for according to Wikipedia America has the highest rape stats in the world.

Rape is a serious crime in Islam it carries the death penalty, and these asseholes who are abusing the law, are roundly condemned but of course the Islamophobes don't report that. David Horowitz won't tell you that.

The assehole Pakistani who said what he did was condemned by the religious hierarcy, but of course Frontpgae mag didn't mention that. why would they? they have an agenda to selectively pick out anything that defames Islam and ignores all the rest.

I can compile a list of Christian rapes, or Hindu rapes, or Jewish rapes, exactly the same way that Horowitz's rag has done to Muslims.

Case dismissed.

The Yemeni orphans forced conversion was an exception rather than the rule, and yes it is cultural genocide, but it wasn't done for that purpose. Neither source gives the reason WHY these kids were targets. I'm not excusing the actions, rather wanting to know the reasons why it happened at that particular time, other than the fact that is was under Zaydi rule. Was't the land under British control at that time?
I actually know people from that family, they live in exile in the UAE and Saudi.
If it was just forced conversions, then the whole community and not just Jews wouldve been targeted.

I posted another post earlier, or maybe not, i'll repost it again.

Daniel Greenfield @ the Sultan Knish blog said...

The rape stats are cited by Front Page Magazine, but not originated from there. The question is not which country has the highest rape statistics, a question which is meaningless in the Muslim world where women who have been raped can be arrested and charged with Zina, as recently happened to a visiting British Muslim woman in Dubai (ironic that she had more rights in England than she did in a Muslim country) but who the perpetrators are.

The number of high profile Muslim gang rape cases in Europe and Australia continued to rise, and prominent Muslim authorities like the Grand Mufti of Australia Sheik Hilaly, and some of the other fellows quoted here, continue to defend the idea that non-Muslim women can be freely raped.

This of course goes back to the days of Mohammed and his men.

Regarding the orphans, this was not an exception. As cited it was a law in force at the time. Nor was it uniquely in Yemen. The same practice existed in Syria and elsewhere in the Muslim world.

Furthermore the Muslim persecution of Jews in Yemen goes back centuries. Rabbi Maimon wrote his famous Epistle to Yemen in aid of Jewish who were being forcibly converted to Islam almost 900 years ago. Only during the French protectorate, were Jews given some legal rights because Islamic law no longer dominated the system.

Sp too in the present day, the rise of Islam in Turkey has led to attacks on Jews.

Daniel Greenfield @ the Sultan Knish blog said...

Another snapshot of the glories of Islamic law,

Malaysian government courting Muslim voters by beating women

Anonymous said...

Good article Sultan.

Anonymous said...


How many witnesses are needed to prove a rape by sharia law...?

Anonymous said...

David Horowitz is a good man doing a service to his country. Trying to smear him with the word Islamophobe is a waste of your time. You will never take over the world, men like David Horowitz will stop you. Put that in your good book.

Keli Ata said...

Vatican City--How many religious Catholic girls are raped or victims of honor killings because they dressed slightly immodestly or dated a boy?

Israel---How many religious Jewish girls are raped or victims of honor killings because they dressed immodestly or dated a boy?

Egypt? Saudi Arabia? Jordan? Turkey? Yemen? Iran? Iraq?

Anonymous said...


This just in....

CBN News traveled to London to talk with Anjem Choudary, a leading Muslim radical who says Islamic teachings are what shaped his pro-jihad message.

Although both George W. Bush and Barack Obama have declared that Islam is a religion of peace, Choudary begs to differ.

A Religion of Peace?

"You can't say that Islam is a religion of peace," Choudary told CBN News. "Because Islam does not mean peace. Islam means submission. So the Muslim is one who submits. There is a place for violence in Islam. There is a place for jihad in Islam."

Choudary is the leader of Islam4UK, a group recently banned in Britain under the country's counter-terrorism laws. He wants Islamic Sharia law to rule the United Kingdom and is working to make that dream a reality.

While Islamic radicals in the United States usually prefer to speak in more moderate tones while in public, masking their true agenda, Choudary has no such inhibitions.

He has praised the 9/11 hijackers and has called for the execution of Pope Benedict. He also stirred controversy recently when video emerged of him converting a 10-year-old British boy to Islam.

Openly Praising Jihad

Choudary told CBN News his group is a "non-violent political and ideological movement" that resides in the UK under "a covenant of security."

Yet he openly praises violent jihad.

"The Koran is full of, you know, jihad is the most talked about duty in the Koran other than tawhid -- belief," he said. "Nothing else is mentioned more than the topic of fighting."

Several former members of Choudary's group have been arrested on terrorism charges.

"A very significant amount of former al-Muhajiroun people were involved in terrorist plots against this country," London-based terrorism expert Peter Neumann said. "A number of people have actually gone to Afghanistan, joined the Taliban and died fighting for the Taliban."

Choudary refuses to condemn acts of terror including 9/11 and the July 7, 2005 London bombings, which killed 52 people.

Islam More than Religion

CBN News asked Choudary for his thoughts on the 7/7 bombings on London's transport system, and whether he condemned them.

"For the people who carried it out, it was legitimate," he replied. "If you look at the will of the 7/7 bombers Mohammed Siddique Khan and Shehzad Tanweer, they would be justified. And there are many verses from the Koran and many statements to say that's the Islamic argument. And that is a difficult Islamic argument to refute. And there are many scholars who support that argument as well."

Choudary says his group is merely following core Islamic teachings and that Islam is much more than a religion.

"This particular belief is more than just a religion," he declared. "It is not just a spiritual belief. It is, in fact, an ideology which you believe in and you struggle for and you are willing even to die for, because you believe in that: That is your whole life."

Choudary seems to relish being called Great Britain's "most hated man" and pledges to continue his rallies calling for the overthrow of the British system.

Fatima said...

So are you telling me that if the USA didn't do this, the Saudi's wouldn't get their act together? and if the USA did this with Saudi Arabia, the other "rogue" Muslim countries would get their act together too.

OF COURSE America is propping up the corrupt dictatorships, behind the false fear that "Islamist" regimes would be a bigger threat.

Do what i suggest above, and watch Saudi Arabia change. The other countries would follow.

This is a matter of right and wrong, but of course America (secular hedonism) doesn't care about right and wrong, they only care about getting their oil.

Again, the problem is not a "muslim" one, it's a cultural one and many Muslims would support equal rights for all, in their countries,

Did you know that the reason many Christians are attacked in Muslim countries is because ignorant locals see them as "allied" to america and the west, whom they percieve as enemies. It's not their religon that is the problem, but since they share a religion with the enemy, the ignorant see them as enemies.
If you bother to read the Quran or consult with Ilsamic scholars, they will condemn these practices, as against what The Prophet taught us, and what God tells us in the QUran.

It is a HISTORICAL fact that islamic rule is tolerant, individual Muslims may abuse the rules (I don’t deny we have bad Muslims) but the rules are there in in black and white to check.
The Jews and Christians used to be called Ahl al-Dhimma, People of the Covenant. The Prophet said, "He who abuses a dhimmi [non-Muslim citizen] then I will be his rival and dispute him on the Day of Judgment."
From Wikpedia:

"Many non-Muslims used to live with Muslims under the banner of Islam for almost thirteen centuries. Throughout those periods non-Muslims used to have the same high standard of living as the Muslims did. They enjoyed equal rights, prosperity, happiness, tranquility and security.

An Islamic classical scholar, Imam Qarafi, says, "It is the responsibility of the Muslims to the People of the Dhimma [non-Muslim citizens] to take care of their weak, fulfilling the needs of the poor, feeding the hungry, providing clothes, addressing them politely and even tolerating their harm even if it was from a neighbour, even though the Muslim may have an upper hand. The Muslims must also advise them sincerely on their affairs and protect them against anyone who tries to hurt them or their family, steal their wealth or violates their rights."

Fatima said...

"The solution does not lie with the United States. Overthrowing the Saudi kingdom would most likely to lead to an even more Islamist regime."

An even more Islamist regime would mean the initial reaction that is always extreme in ANY revolution.

This would then phase out, into normality, you mentioned Iran, and that is happening now in Iran. There was an extreme reaction to the Shah, now people want "normality" now that the threat of secular hedonism is gone.

One of the reasons that the USA is hated amongst Muslim countries is because it supports these corrupt dictatorships against the will of the people in Muslim countries.

I'll look over these links about the Yemeni Jews, and write more, but right now i want to ask you this,

You said, the USA is not to blame but tell me this, since Saudi Arabia doesn't allow free worship (something that Islam allows, religious tyranny is forbidden) why does America not ban Saudi Citizens from entereing America, ban all trade, boycott the oil and basically boycott the country UNTIL it gives the same rights to not just American's but all foreigners who go there? If the Saudi's cannot allow that, then any country whose citizens cannot practice their religion or have rights, should have a tit for tat in place. The world should boycott Saudi Arabia, and lot of Muslims would join such a cause.

The Philippines should treat Saudi's and Gulf people the same way they treat their guest workers.

Egypt's Copt problem, is not so much due to religion, most Egyptians are secular, it's a cultural one, treating Christians badly is not part of Islamic tradition, nor Jews or other Book People.
I might add you have this problem too, don't Israeli's Azkhenazi's treat Sefardim as inferior? and Russian Jews are always complaining of discrimination, yet I wouldn't blame Judaism for this, it's a cultural problem. Also, both Dubai and Israel are the Middle East's biggest slave (sex) markets. This problem exists in Israel too. It's not a religious problem, you cannot blame Judaism for that, nor Islam (the Quran actually is the only religion that commands kind treatment to slaves, and encourages manumission)

Would you blame Judaism for the sexual and labour slavery in Israel? If not, why do you blame Islam? and who do you blame for teh discrimination then in Israel> Did you know why Mordechai Vananu betrayed Israel? He said he was treated like shit by the Jewish elite (the azhkenazi's treated him as a sefardim, like dirt, this led to him rejecting Judaims, and covnerting to Christinaity) I'm digressing here, but the only reason slavery doesn't exist in the USA, or the other developed countries, is because of the stringent laws in place, not because people are any different. Do you think that if they could, American's would be importing slave labour? would you then blame Christiantiy for that?

Back to the subject, at hand
Why does America allow Saudi Citizens to practice their faith in the USA if they don't allow it in their own country? Why does America allow Saudi's to buy in the USA when foreigners cannot buy land in Saudi Arabia?

Fatima said...

Sutlan, Mohammed's treatement of women was legendary, and it makes the sexual conquests and slaves of Joshu'a and Moses time look tame by comparison. Concubinage is legal in Jewish Halacha.

The Prohpet was a ladies man. Had he wanted he could have had a different woman everyday, there was no shortage of women for themost powerful man to ever walk the Peninsula. But he wasn't interested. His marriages were mainly political alliances, and his favourite wife was his first one.

Perhaps you should reread the Torah the earlier parts. The punisthment for rape for a woman is marriage to the rapist.

The Epistle that the Rambam wrote was actually in response to what a JEWISH APOSTATE WAS PREACHING. He was telling the Jews to convert to Islam, he was called the Meshuga, and Islamophobes wrongly say, (or lie) that the Rambam was referring to The Prophet. He wasn't.

Yemen's Jews were perhap's the most ill treated, is that why you chose that particular community? What about the countless ones who benefitted from Islamic rule? Most converted to Islam, the upper and middle class anyway. The reaosn the lower class didn't was because they didn't come into contact with us.

Your worse enemeis have always been from your own people. That was true in Moses time, it was true in The Prophet's time, and it's true today, in any case, here is the epistle at the Chabad website that Ibn Maimun wrote
Epistle to Yemen

The Rambam

The Epistle Concerning Yemen
An even more famous letter by Rambam, Epistle Concerning Yemen (Iggeret Teiman), was composed as the result of similar persecutions in another Jewish community. This epistle was written in response to a query by a Yemenite sage, Rabbi Jacob al-Fayumi during a period of violent persecution and religious intolerance in his country. About the year 1168, the Jews of Yemen were confronted with a three-pronged agonizing problem. A fanatical Moslem cleric became the ruler of this distant, primitive South Arabian land and decreed that his Jewish subjects convert to Islam under the threat of harsh punishment and suffering. Their agony was compounded by a Jewish apostate who embraced Mohammedanism. To demonstrate his zeal for his newly adopted faith, he began preaching to the Jewish communities that Mohammed was a divinely sent prophet alluded to in the Bible and that Islam was a new, divinely revealed religion superseding Judaism. Hence, the apostate argued, the Jews should yield to the ruler's demand and embrace Mohammedanism. Furthermore, at just about this time, an impostor appeared proclaiming himself to be the Messiah, adding to the confusion of the poor wretched masses. Rabbi Jacob al-Fayumi turned to Rambam for advice and counsel.

Fatima said...

Anonymous, run along baby.

I don't waste time with people who do not even know the basics of history, leave aloen religion or Sharia.

Sharia is not for the weak minded and ignorant. Learn, and you will discover why so many people are converting to Islam.

Islam is truth beauty and light.

Western women convert to Islam because of the way Muslim men treat women. So much for the rapists.

Sutlan, i agree with you about the rape laws, zina etc.

As i said earlier, it's cultural practices that abuse the Zina laws. Where the men, who are misogynsts will not bother with other Islamic laws, they will seize what they can to oppress. Much like the tyannical ruler. People abusing scriptoral laws for misogynisit purposes exist in yoru community too. I know in Israel rape and incest is prevalent as is misogyny. Can you tell me why David Horowitz never reports on that? Or is it OK for victims of non Muslim men to suffer, and only Islamic crimes should be highlighted?

Do you think a woman who is raped cares if it was done for religious abuse, cultural genocide , sick lust, abuse of power? Whatever the reason it 's a crime.

A tool by misogynists to control women, they abuse the rape laws to "control" women, or use the laws as a excuse to save their "honour" which is a practice that exisits in non Muslim communtities too,

The practice is a disgrace but it's not Islamic. It exists amongst non Muslim communities too.

Daniel Greenfield @ the Sultan Knish blog said...

What is happening now in Iran, is the product of an Islamic takeover resulting in a state where there is no law, only force.

It is the same way throughout the Muslim world. The only way Iran will be normalized, if it replaces Islamic law, with the rights of the individual.

The "threat" of secular hedonism is not gone. And that normality would include people actually being free to live their lives, instead of having to buy liquor through smuggling networks run by the Mullahs themselves.

The USA would be hated regardless of who it supported. That hate goes back to before the US had any significant involvement in the Middle East. The hate is dependent on Islam's view of America, not on politics alone.

The US doesn't take steps against Saudi Arabia, because the Saudis control much of American foreign policy. The Saudis fund groups such as CAIR which serve as the voices of Muslims in America.

The persecution of Christians is hardly limited to Copts in Egypt. They are simply one of the more prominent cases. The same things are going on in Iraq and Pakistan and Gaza. The victims are often members of the same ethnic group, they are targeted because they are Christians.

Again all this goes back centuries, and is wrapped up in Islam's suppression of other religions.

Your attempt to whitewash Islamic persecutions by claiming that they are only cultural (a favorite apologetic for any Islamic atrocity) or by claiming that Christians are only persecuted out of hate for America (one wonders why Christians were persecuted many centuries before America was even inhabited) are only ways of shifting responsibility to the victim or defining Islamic crimes as non-Islamic.

Replace Saudi Arabia with a true Islamist regime to improve relations? We already got a preview of what that would look like in Afghanistan and Iran.

Your advice is akin to suggesting that a man suffering from a bullet in the shoulder, shoot himself in the head. Which of course is exactly the intent there.

If the coffee tastes sour because there's poison in it, drinking raw poison certainly won't improve matters any.

Islam is the problem. The House of Saud is simply the vehicle for the worst of it.

Islam is not tolerant. Islam's very rise is linked to its intolerance. I've cited plenty of opinions from Islamic scholars already. You haven't exactly rushed to address those.

You can cite selective verses arguing otherwise, but the facts of history lean the other way. Non-Muslims in Muslim countries have been persecuted throughout the centuries, marginalized, forced to convert and abused over and over again. The result has drastically depleted the number of religious minorities in the Middle East.

And it goes on today. In Malaysia where Muslims are burning churches because Christians dare to use Allah to refer to their god. (No doubt you will claim this is cultural as well.)

In Southeast Asia, and Europe, and the Middle East-- the killing goes on. All in the name of Islamic power.

Fatima said...

"Sp too in the present day, the rise of Islam in Turkey has led to attacks on Jews."

It isn't the rise of Islam that is the threat to Jews.

Israels continued occupation and the Palestinian diaspora is the reason Turkey is "attacking jews"

What about the attacks on Muslims? Since 9/11 Muslims are under threat everywhere.

We wouldnt need to be defending our rights if we were not being attacked on all sides.

Your news story complains that we fight for our rights, well so what? Why shouldn't we?

I'm all for giving rights to oppressed minorities, but i'll also fight those who smear and lie about us and try to take our rights from us.

Daniel Greenfield @ the Sultan Knish blog said...

"The Prohpet was a ladies man. Had he wanted he could have had a different woman everyday, there was no shortage of women for themost powerful man to ever walk the Peninsula. But he wasn't interested. His marriages were mainly political alliances, and his favourite wife was his first one. "

Yes he literally could have any woman he wanted.

Whether she was a six year old playing with dolls.

Whether she was already married to his own son.

Whether he had killed her family and raped her.

But I guess it's easy to be a "ladies man", when you have an army to bring you captives and when you invented a deity who rushes to change your own laws every time you desire to break a new taboo.

So by ladies man, you mean ordinary enough cult leader.

Anyone who has a particularly strong stomach, can read all about Mohammed's "heroic" exploits with the ladies

As one of your Hadiths say, Allah rushed to fulfill Mohammed's sexual desires. Or perhaps more accurately, Mohammed invented Allah to convince people to satisfy his sexual desires.

Wouldn't have been the first time.

Daniel Greenfield @ the Sultan Knish blog said...

Islam isn't for the weak minded and ignorant?

Oddly that's exactly the type drawn to convert to Islam, from Johnny Walker to Yousef Khattoub to Adam Gadahn to Louis Farrakhan

Western women convert to Islam because they think that charming exotic fellow will keep on treating them that way, once they're living with him in Ridyah or Cairo.

And then once they arrive, their passport is taken away and good luck leaving the country.

Daniel Greenfield @ the Sultan Knish blog said...

The Hudood laws did not only target women, they were part of an attempt to restore Islamic laws on moral issues.

Women were of course targeted, but as part of a broader Islamic moralistic approach. The same situation now happening in Malaysia, Indonesia and every country that tries to use Islamic law to control public morality.

And when major Islamic scholars argue that women can be raped if they're not covering their heads... then trying to dismiss that as just cultural won't fly.

Was Mohammed also being a cultural misogynist when he said that the majority of those in hell are women?

No doubt he was. But that too is Islam.

Daniel Greenfield @ the Sultan Knish blog said...

"It isn't the rise of Islam that is the threat to Jews.

Israels continued occupation and the Palestinian diaspora is the reason Turkey is "attacking jews"

Ah so Christians are being attacked because of America... and Jews because of Israel.

But then why were Jews persecuted, when Israel was occupied by Arab rulers... and why were Christians being persecuted before America was even inhabited?

Perhaps they had prophetic powers that enabled them to foresee the rise of America and Israel, and so began murdering Jews and Christians preemptively?

I believe there was an Islamic cleric who expressed that thesis.

"What about the attacks on Muslims? Since 9/11 Muslims are under threat everywhere."

The majority of hate crimes in the US have targeted Jews, not Muslims. And many of those were carried out by Muslims.

"We wouldnt need to be defending our rights if we were not being attacked on all sides.

Your news story complains that we fight for our rights, well so what? Why shouldn't we?

I'm all for giving rights to oppressed minorities, but i'll also fight those who smear and lie about us and try to take our rights from us.

Really? What rights don't you have in the US.

And what Muslim country would give you more rights than the US?

Andy said...

Ah Fatima
I have read it all before.
..altered meaning..not true Muslims...Islamophobes.
words, words, words.
Meaningless in the face of reality.
By their fruits you will recognise them...
And we do!

Blame the Jews, the Americans, the West, the Christians.....Rage is so intrinsic to Islam that external events are irrelevant. Hatred of non-Moslems is the pivot of Islamic existence. Muslims are bound together by a shared and carefully nurtured animosity to 'The Other' developed from earliest childhood, which ignites a permanent fire of tension between Moslems and non-Moslems. Ever since Jihadists started immigrating into the West, we have become all too familiar with concepts such as 'Killing the unbelievers wherever you find them' and the tribal polarities of Dar al-Harb versus Dar al-Islam , Ummah versus Kuffar etc.

Every year thousands of Christians, Hindus, Buddhists and atheists are killed by Muslims in Pakistan, Sudan, Thailand, Malaysia, India, Philippines, Nigeria, Kenya......

As the Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini says....
"Those who know nothing about Islam pretend that Islam counsels against war. Those people are witless. Islam says: 'Kill all the unbelievers just as they would kill you all!' Does this mean that Muslims should sit back until they are devoured by the infidel? Islam says: 'Kill them, put them to the sword and scatter them.' Islam says: 'Whatever good there is exists thanks to the sword.' The sword is the key to Paradise, which can be opened only for the Holy Warriors! Does all this mean that Islam is a religion that prevents men from waging war? I spit upon those foolish souls who make such a claim."

Anonymous said...

Really what it comes down to, what did the Prophets say.

The Prophet Ezekiel said that before Israel builds their 3rd temple, most Islamic Nations are destroyed. Ezekiel 38 and 39.

This was written much longer ago than the Quran!

And Anyone can see that is living on the Earth now, God has given more military might to Christian nations and Israel than Muslim nations.

Shiloh said...

When one proclaims a 'truth' based on fabrications and plagerism, how else do you expect them to act when confronted. Exactly as they are with lies and violence.

Anonymous said...

Since Moslems moved to Sweden rape has gone up 1000% and every other place they go.

Anonymous said...

Ah, Fatima,lady- mother- of believers...

Anonymous said...


You're wearing chum pants in a shark pool.
You're taqqiyah is useless in these parts.

I should consult a muslim/imam to explain to me the pecaeful context of the 'Verse of The Sword', eh?
So much for that koran being so precise and clearly understood, eh?

You were raised in the forest of islam.
It's not possible for you to see the ridiculousness of the individual trees.
Step out of the darkness, leave the forest. Look back at a distance at the ridiculousness of it all.

You're empathy in posts above shows you aren't completely numb to the horrors your 'religion' brings to muslims and non-muslims alike.

There's no dog like allah, and moooo-HAM-MUD is his pervert!


Joe from Toronto said...

My computer glitched as I was uploading my comment.


Joe from T.O.

Daniel Greenfield @ the Sultan Knish blog said...

sorry about that joe, it happens

Anonymous said...

Fatima dear,

Please read history books properly before claiming that Islam has not converted anyone forcibly. The only way islam spread is by killing men, and kidnapping and raping the women.

Your claim about Islam recognizing only elected leaders is bogus. There has never been an elected islamic leader till recently. Don't blame the USA for your collective failure.

The record of Islamic killings of Hindus and Budhists in South Asia over centuries is well documented including by muslim chroniclers. In fact the Hindu Kush range in the himalayas commemorated the slaughter of Hindus in Af-Pak region 1000 years ago.

What happened to the native non-muslim population in islamic countries? Did they vanish?

Fatima said...


What happened to non Muslims in Muslim lands you ask? I know the USA has a problem with ignorance, but try reading English history, or go to the more enlightnened Europe, where they will chew up ignorant people like you. Most non Muslims CONVERTED to islam. That has always been the case, and it is so today espceciallyin America, Europe, and Russia.

So you're an End time cult follower, a Christian Zionist?

The forum is full of Sharks you say? you underestimate me, I can chew you up and spit you out, and expose you for the fake fraud you are, but I don’t have time,.

You’re an antisemite, your lot pretend to be friends of Israel, (hear what my Jewish friends say about Christian Zionists) for the Holocaust Armeggedon, where you think you’ll be whipped up whilst Israel burns to death for refusing your fake deity, or converting. That is the ugly picture you represent.

I know full well that Jews despise your cult, the right wing may pretend a friendsip because they need your votes in the US, but we all know what the reality is. Ask Alan Dershowitz, America’s top legal brain. Read his book about the Chrisitan Right and their fake support for Israel, whilst you’re at it, check out Max Blumenthals

Your fake Deity, the one whose followers have been responsible for more bloodshed in history, (including killing Jews by the way)_ knows not what Ezekial 38 means.

As usual, Chrisitanity gets it's prophecies wrong, you will see in due course.


Christian Confusion On End-Times Nonsense
"People who are obsessed with end times have never learned from history.
They've been 100 percent wrong, 100 percent of the time."

You are deluded if you think Christian nations are strong. even Bush wasn't that deluded

Atlanta Journal, 9/17/06

Christianity is on decline worldwide, America is NOT a christian nation, and when it came into the grips of your cult (the last 9 years) it got destroyed.
That’s why you butt was booted out of the whitehouse.

Europe got all her knowledge from Islam, until she became secular. the USA was created for the very reason to separate state from Christianity.

Israel is reliant upon the US which is reliant upon the oil, which God put under our feet. The Muslim world can destroy the USA within one week if we so choose.

What you don't realise is that Islamic prophecies have never beemn wrong that's why we never leave the faith, and why so many Chrisitnas in the USA (as well as the world) are converting to Islam.

Christiantiy is dying in the US, Europe will be Islamic in 20 years (witness the conversion rates) Russia is already mainly Muslim, The USA will follow suit, Why are so many Evangelicals converting to Islam in the USA? Didn’t Ezekial 38 “do it” for them?
CNN News: 1.5 Million Americans coverted to ISLAM in USA
Why are Christian priests and missionaries embracing Islam ?

We know what the future is, and it doesn't have a pagan deity (yours)

Fatima said...


Your links are from Islamophobic sites, thusnot even worth commenting on. Passports hidden? I was talking about Muslims who are living in the west, not marrying immignrants and returning.

It isn't just women who are converting, men are too, and if all you have to offer are Islamophobic quotes and links, then there is no point continuing this. It's noteworthy that you right wing Zionist jews, only have antisemites like Anonymous, (christian zionist end time cult) who sniff after Israel for the Armeggedon, and look forward to your converting or dying for them.

the Hadeeth's you quote are distorted, there is no bigger champion of womens rights than The Prophet. I just read some of your garbage articles, 95% lies. You do this because Muslims countries don’t recognise Israel? Stop acting like a jilted lover.

As for the marriage of prepubescant girls, the Torah allows that too, so what’s your point? Cohen’s are permitted sex with a girl from age 3. Child marriages exist in Jewish law too and until modern times were the norm. As for women’s right’s, Oh the irony,

Islam certainly gives women more rights than Judaism does, and certainly more rights Christianity. Your "deity" comment should be addressed to your fake friends, like Anonymous. I’m asuming you’re Jewish, but are you? Or are you a wannabe Jew like the Messiancis who pretend to be? Don’t your Rabbi’s consider Muslims to be monotheistic?, it’s christianity they have a problem with, theologically. Remember, the Haik al Suleyman, is under Jordanian control. Either you’re ignorant, or you pretend, or you are not Jewish. Are you a Messianic?

One of your's ( Paul of Tsaurus) created the fake deity. Not Mohammed, Allah is the God of Ishmael and Abraham. Why have so many of your tribe converted to Islam over the centuries but never the other way round? These were learned men, Rabbi's who knew God, they never went to Christianity, despite the torment Christiantiy put them through, but embraced Islam, even thought we don't require Book people to convert. Same with Christinaity. But all this was foretold, it’s no surprise to the Muslim.

The Prophet is Abraham's greatest son. The greatest man in history. Ranks way above every other Prophet in influence, including his forefathers.
Professor Jules Masserman in 'Who Were Histories Great Leaders?' in TIME
July 15, 1974
JULES MASSERMAN, U.S. psychoanalyst: Leaders must fulfill three
functions —provide for the well-being of the led, provide a social
organization in which people feel relatively secure, and provide them with one set of beliefs.
People like Pasteur and Salk are leaders in the first sense. People like Gandhi and Confucius, on one hand, and Alexander, Caesar and Hitler on the other, are leaders in the second and perhaps the third sense. Jesus and Buddha belong in the third category alone. Perhaps the greatest leader of all times was Mohammed, who combined all three functions. To a lesser degree, Moses did the same.
Historical figures who changed the world, not surprisingly Muhammad Prophet of Islam came 1st
Michael Hart in 'The 100, A Ranking of the Most Influential Persons In History,' New York, 1978.

It is this unparalleled combination of secular and religious influence which I feel entitles Muhammad to be
considered the most influential single figure in human history.
In fact, as the driving force behind the Arab conquests, he may well rank as the most influential political leader of all time.

Fatima said...


"Please read history books properly before claiming that Islam has not converted anyone forcibly"

Is Oxford good enough for you? Which backwater did you study in? Islam built the west, Christian Zionists are the most ignorant and backward people in the USA, of you would know it is Christianty that spread through rape, forcilbe conversions and crusades, all failures, Europe for 800 years got her knowledge from the Caliphate

This is how Islam spread, and is spreading todya. I told you earlier, in the post before it's ony a matter of time before America is Muslim.


Professor Huston Smith of the MIT in his book, "The Religions of Man" says, "In some areas where Islam and Christianity are competing for converts, Islam is gaining at a rate of 10 to 1."

A. J. Arberry (Aspects of Islamic Civilization,) states:
The rapidity of the spread of Islam, noticeably through extensive provinces which had been long Christian, is a crucial fact of history..

The sublime rhetoric of the Quran, that inimitable symphony, the very sounds of which move men to tears and ecstasy". (M. Pickhtal, The Meaning of the Glorious Quran, p.vii)

Arberry continues:

This, and the urgency of the simple message carried, holds the key to the mystery of one of the greatest catalysms in the history of religion. When all military, political and economic factors have been exhausted, the religious impulse must still be recognized as the most vital and enduring.
Historian De Lacy O’Leary in the book “Islam at the crossroad”:
“History makes it clear however, that the legend of fanatical Muslims sweeping through the world and forcing Islam at the point of the sword upon conquered races is one of the most fantastically absurd myth that historians have ever repeated.”
Jostaf Lopond, in his book, The Arabs Civilization, states, ' Force was never a factor in the spread of the Glorious Quran. In fact, Arabs left the freedom of choice to the people they overcome and conquered. Some of the Christians, who converted to Islam and took the Arabic language as a medium of communication, were merely impressed with the Arabs conquerors' justice. Such people never noticed any such astounding justice from their previous masters. Secondly, such converts noticed a great ease in dealing with the Islamic life, faith and principles.' (Ibid, page 314).
Rosenthal makes his point as follows:
The more important factor for the spread of Islam is religious law of Islam (Sharia which is an inclusive, all-embracing, all-comprehensive way of thinking and living) which was designed to cover all manifestations of life. (Political Thought in Medieval Islam, p.21)
Thomas Carlyle, in his book “Heroes and Hero worship”, --:
“The sword indeed, but where will you get your sword? Every new opinion, at its starting is precisely in a minority of one, in one man’s head alone. There it dwells as yet. One man alone of the whole world believes it; there is one man against all men. That he takes a sword and tries to propagate with that, will do little for him. You must get your sword! On the whole, a thing will propagate itself as it can.’
Brockelman, who is usually very unsympathetic and partial, also recognizes the religious values of Islam as the main factor for the spread of Islam.
(History of the Islamic Peoples, p.37)
Ira Zepp Jr.,
' The historical reality is that the expansion of Islam was usually by persuasion and not by military power. In any case, Islam cannot be forced on anyone; if profession of the shahadah [i.e. the declaration of Islam] is forced on someone, it is not true Islam.

Anonymous said...

Islam suck's , fatima you are branwashed muslim. Islam is known for denying others the very tolerance it demands for itself

Anonymous said...

islam suck's

Anonymous said...

Christians are persecuted in islamic countries, while muslims enjoy freedom and rights in Europe and USA.

Daniel Greenfield @ the Sultan Knish blog said...

Oh yes. Apocalyptic Armageddon targeting the Jews. Something Muslims know a lot about.

"The Hour [the Day of Judgement] will not begin until the Muslims fight the Jews and kill them. A Jew will hide behind a rock or a tree, and the rock or tree will say, ‘O Muslim, O slave of Allaah! There is a Jew behind me, come and kill him!’

Since you don't like links from sites hostile to Islam, here's one from an Islamic site

A lovely name for a site with the view that the Jews must be destroyed.

There's a brief list of practical applications for that here

Believe me we know who the anti-semites are. The ones who are killing us. Your people.

"We know what the future is, and it doesn't have a pagan deity (yours)"

Your "deity" is a bad ripoff of Judaism and Christianity overlaid with Arab tribal customs and traditions. It's pagan insofar as it incorporates pagan beliefs.

Daniel Greenfield @ the Sultan Knish blog said...

Yes we know men are converting. Our jails are full of them. Oddly Islam seems to appeal greatly to criminals.

Perhaps this is because Islam legitimizes murder, robbery and rape in the name of Allah?

I can see why that would appeal to criminals. It also makes you wonder where Mohammed really recruited some of his men. Of course in his culture back then, that sort of thing was much more legitimate. Still is in many of the more backward Islamic parts of the world.

Oh yes, there was no bigger champion of women's rights than Mohammed.

He gave women the right to sexually service their husbands whenever they demanded it.

He gave them the right to only walk around with their faces covered (unless they were slaves, in which case they didn't have to wear clothes at all)

He gave them the right to marry him whenever he killed their husbands.

I don't think any man not standing trial for sex crimes has done more for women.

Daniel Greenfield @ the Sultan Knish blog said...

Yes the Temple Mount is under Muslim control. Because when Israel liberated Jerusalem, it chose to be generous to the people it had defeated.

While Muslims had destroyed the Hurva synagogue, used tombstones from Jewish cemeteries as paving stones and other synagogues as latrines... Jews actually let Muslims keep control of part of one of our holiest sites.

This was a huge mistake and like anything good done for Muslims, was rewarded with violence and hate.

Under Muslim rule of course, Jews were repeatedly barred from the Western Wall.

All this of course only makes my point about how Muslims treat minorities, and the perils of being kind and generous to Muslims.

Daniel Greenfield @ the Sultan Knish blog said...

Ah the question of why Jews converted to Islam.

We've talked about forcible conversions of Jews in Yemen. This of course was not a unique phenomenon.

For example the Alhmohades in Spain who destroyed synagogues and churches and forced Jews to convert to Islam.

Of course they didn't even trust those converted Jews, and forced them to wear yellow scarves as a covering.

Much like the Nazis would later on with the yellow star.

Some examples of why Jews converted to Islam.

"Upon the voluntary surrender of Sijilamassa, Abd Al Mu'min ordered the Jews and Christians there to accept Islam. After debates extending over seven months, during which the Jewish community fasted and prayed, a Muslim commander ordered speedy conversion for all.

One hundred and fifty Jewish resisters were slain, while the rest adopted Islam. Elsewhere, particularly in cities taken by storm, wholesale conversion seems to have been enforced immediately after occupation.

Many Jews like the family of Maimonides found ways to emigrate, others observing that mere lip service to Islam often satisfied the authorities remained behind while secretly continuing to observe Jewish customs and particularly the Sabbath.

Secret Jews of this type were sufficiently numerous to attract the rulers' attention.THe tehologically trained Caliph Abu Yusuf Al Mansur was quoted as saying.

"If I knew for certain that they became faithful Muslims, I would allow them to mix and intermarry with Muslims. If I knew for certain that they are infidels, I would kill the men and hand their children and property over to Muslims."

Now those Jews who were slain for refusing to convert to Islam, died Al Kiddush Hashem. For the sanctification of the Name of G-d.

They are what we consider martyrs.

By you a martyr is a mass murderer. By us, it is someone who dies rather than reject G-d.

Daniel Greenfield @ the Sultan Knish blog said...

This is what we consider a martyr

"The individual sufferer was an interesting Jewess, of respectable family, residing at Tangier;

This young creature was summoned before the Cadi, by two Moors, who deposed to her having pronounced their confession of faith. This, however, she utterly denied, but in vain; and the Cadi had no alternative, even had he possessed the inclination, but to decree her conformity to Islamism, on pain of death.

The Jews came forward with offers of immense sums of money to save her, but her fate was irrevocably decided, and the only mercy the baffled tyrant could afford his young and innocent victim, was to allow of her being decapitated, instead of being burnt alive. I had an account of the closing scene from an eyewitness, who was one of the guards at the execution--and although, as a body, there is nowhere a more dissolute set of irregular soldiery than the Morocco Moors, yet he confessed to me that many of his vice-hardened companions could not restrain their tears, and that he himself could not look with dry eyes on a sight of such cold-blooded atrocity.

This beautiful young creature was led out to where a pile ready for firing had been raised for her last couch, her long, dark hair flowing disheveled over her shoulders, she looked around in vain for a heart and hand that could succor, though so many eyes pitied her; for the last time she was offered--with the executioner and the pyre in all their terror before her--her life, on condition of being false to her G-d; she only asked for a few minutes for prayer, after which her throat was cut by the executioner, according the barbarous custom of the country, and her body consumed on the fire."

These are our martyrs. And these are yours, the cowardly murderer, the hysteric who finds Allah at the blast of a bomb belt.

Those Jews who survived every atrocity of your ancestors to stand before you today, are the descendants of those who kept the faith and endured. Those who could not endure fall away. But those who keep to the way of G-d will endure forever. Your wars are only another stone on our path to Zion.

As for your people. The Day of the Lord is coming.

Fatima said...

Anonymous, you are really something,

Southern Baptists and Evangelicals are responsible for the worst types of bloodshed today, (iraq) worse than the Islamic extremists. That's why Evengelism is dying, it's seen as the religion of the ignorant and bigoted which you are. Even the Israeli’s whom you claim to support hate you, check out why are so many American Jews working actively against you, you only have allies like this Sultan guy, who is most probably a Messianic, (one of your’s)

Evangelicals are also responsible for much bloodshed in Africa,

In fact the reason, many younger Evangelicas are dumping the faith, is because the rest of Christianity see them as the modern day Crusaders, the ignornact cult that Europe left behind 300 years ago.

and Anonymous, when the time is right, we will avenge Muslim blood. America will pay, just like she will pay for genociding the Indians whose land she stole. Remember the Crusades, we always came out on top, there is a reason for that,

It's an empty shell, whith only a fake deity who saves. You reject Jesus by embracing the pagan Paul. Jesus didn't reject the laws, or worship fake 3 deities or call himself God, that's why your history has been what it is.

Paul fulfils this prophecy in Daniel, as God said

(Daniel 11.14)

"And the members of the outlaws of your nation would be carried to make a (prophetic) vision stand. And they stumbled"

That is Pauls religion, they alwasy stumble. The early Christians a monotheistic sect were the followers of Jesus. Paul founded another religon.

Your fake god doens't exist, thats what Jesus meant when he said,

(Matthew 7:22-23)
"Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'"

Fatima said...

as for you Sultan

" Because when Israel liberated Jerusalem, it chose to be generous to the people it had defeated."

No. That wasn't the reason. Or to put it another way, would your Rabbi's have approved giving it away if the Waqf wasn't Muslim, let's say it was Christian?

Do you think your Rabbi's will ever give it to them? and if not why not? They certtainly didn't in thepast, when they fought with US WITH MUSLIMS, against Crusades, and stop being a hypocrite. Jews usually rejoiced when Christian lands fell under Islamic control. The European head of EJC, Moshe Cantor, said the rise of Islam in Europe has benefitted Jews.

I note you you didn't answer my question as to whether you're a bring selectively picked anecdotes to back up your prejedices, and Hadeeth,

That Hadeeth, is a prophecy, not an injunction, (some believe it has already happened) a prophecy where ironically it says, YOUR side will start hostilities. Its not an injunction nor a command to make it happen, and i've seen worse prophecies in the Tanach?

The , did it tell you that the Palestinain authority includes, Christians, Druze, and others too? The Palestinians are mainly secular, and Arafat's top brass was mainly Christian, hence his adopting of the Christian libels, which even Daniel Pipes says, christians brought to the Middle East, it doesn't come from Islam even he acknowledges that, and he is an Islamophobe himself.

Those palestinais who are stirring up Jew hatred are doing so by twisting the meaning of the verses of the Quran. The fight over land, is about land, not religion, and those who make it out to be, are only doing so to whip up support.

you think you can suddenly turn up, expel people from a land, and not expect oppostion or a reaction from them? the land was under British control and they exploited both sides, neither carign for Jew or Arab, they wanted it for themselves, and were happy to exploit both,

either Israel should annex and give equal rights or cede the land for a Palestinian state. to do neither is criminal. Fighting agaisnt that is NOT jew hatred.

the yellow badge star is a fabrication, a lie,

Why did you omit to mention that the Al Mohad's were hostile to Muslims too? They were the Taliban of the day, and why don't you compare them to your own Taliban, or the Christian Taliban or the Hindu Taliban, or the Buddhists who are persecuting and killing Chrisitnas. Even the hostile Wikipidea says the almohads were an exception rather than the rule. If the Rambam was so relieved to be out of Muslim rule, why did he return when Salah ud Din al ayoubi invited him back as his Vizier?

I have already made it clear we have our share of criminals and there will ALWAYS be those who abuse faith, for whatever reason. The point i made, was that it is not the NORM, it's the exception. Why do you hold Musims to a different standard? The Jewish Taliban are oppressing women, i've seen many Jews complaining abouthem, and i've also seen many Southern Baptists claiming Israeli's discriminate against Christians.

You will never get rid of extremism totally, extremism even exists amongst atheists. I note you didn't address anyof my earlier points about the same problems (unequal rights and rape, and incest) in Israel. If man made laws can get rid of these problems why do they exist in secular Israel in worser numbers? or in the secular western countries? If islam were the problem as you're syaing, then these problems would only exist in Islamic practicing societies.

Frank said...

Why give this Muslim pretender a forum to spread it's hate?

Fatima is a disguise name used by a muslim disrupter who goes from blog to blog, place to place spreading lies both about his own religion how awful it is, and trying to place doubt in the minds of others about their own religions.
The way this person uses words and phrases betrays who they are. People have certain idioms and phrases they use over and over again that pinpoint just who they are. This is true of "Fatima" who is actually a black muslim from Chicago formerly named Darell Blaine a two time felony loser in the Illinois prison system last known to be doing 35 years of armed robbery.

Daniel Greenfield @ the Sultan Knish blog said...

Southern Baptists and Evangelicals are responsible for the worst types of bloodshed today, (iraq) worse than the Islamic extremists.

So the Sunnis and Shiites killing each other in Iraq are Evangelical Christians?

Who knew.

No doubt the Islamist groups in Thailand butchering schoolteachers, in the Philippines murdering farmers, a Rabbi and his family in Dubai, the Sudanese regime, the Iranian government and so many millions around the world are all evangelical Christians.


"and Anonymous, when the time is right, we will avenge Muslim blood. America will pay,"

We've been hearing that for a while, but so far for every American you murdered, more Muslims have been killed. So you might want to tamp down the bloodlust and do something useful with your lives.

Oh right, I forgot. You can't. That would take the desire to make the world a better place, instead of a worse one.

Daniel Greenfield @ the Sultan Knish blog said...

I'm Jewish, not Christian, and we didn't give the Waqf away. Israel's leaders chose to leave it in the hands of its Muslim occupiers. Israel has done the same for Christian holy places.

I know this is something Muslims can't comprehend, because you can only take other people's holy places.

Jews fought against Muslims with Christians in Spain, after Muslims began persecuting Jews. Jews fought against the Crusaders, because they were there to kill Jews and Muslims. They weren't fighting in support of Islam. They were fighting to save their lives, and made common cause with Muslims or Christians, when the other wanted to kill them.

Under the Palestinian Authority, the number of Christians has shrunk drastically. Even in Bethlehem from the days when it was under Israeli control.

Article 5 of the draft constitution of the Palestinian Authority unequivocally declares: “In the State of Palestine Islam will be the official religion. … Sharia Islamic law will be the primary source of legislation.”

You want an Islamist regime and then you try to disavow the Almohades and the Taliban? They're the natural outcome of what you want.

You could disavow them if you wanted a secular government, not when you want an Islamist government.

Daniel Greenfield @ the Sultan Knish blog said...


Thanks for the information. I do try to have an open comments section within reason. Obviously there are limits. Taking apart Fatima's claims can educate people on both the tactics and mindset of our enemies.

Fatima said...


“Those Jews who survived every atrocity of your ancestors to stand before you today, are the descendants of those who kept the faith and endured. Those who could not endure fall away. But those who keep to the way of G-d will endure forever. Your wars are only another stone on our path to Zion.”

Your path to Zion or inabiltiy lies in your refusal to keep the laws. It was Muslims who ended your exile when we took control in 7th century, the Patriarchs in the city wanted you out, but the Caliph overruleed them.

Stop pretending to be a victim. Do you think i don't know what the reality is?

“As for your people. The Day of the Lord is coming.”

For you too, Sultan, for you too..

You make yourself to be a victim., you take the worst excess from our history and compare them with Martyr's of your own. Do you think that is a fair comparison? Shouldn’t we compare tolerance with tolerance and extremism with extremism?

Now add up all the “crimes on our side” and then yours, and tell me if Muslims have killed more or if you have. Don’t forget to add up the 1 million or so in the Torah.

Adolf Hitler in WWII was responsible for not 6,000,000 deaths, but 28 million. 6 million is the number of Jews killed in the Holocaust. Stalins top men, including Kaganovitch and Ginrikh (Jews) have killed more people than Hitler. ---
-------- ----
Stalin's Jews
We mustn't forget that some of greatest murderers of modern times were Jewish
Published: 12.21.06, 23:35 / Israel Opinion,7340,L-3342999,00.html

Is the day of the Lord coming for the victims of their genocides too?

Please elaborate, enquiring minds want answers. Atheist Jews are still Halachically Jews, and they have never been condmned for killing Christians in Russia which they did with zeal because they saw them as threats, (for past holocausts)

It was the actions of these men that led Churchill to say that the subsequent events that followed were brought upon themselves.

What are you comments on this? This was the WW2 period, pre Hitler

Fatima said...


let's put our own disagreements aside regarding the Palestinian Christians, and see what they say

The Palestinian Christians THEMSELVES blame Israel, not the Palestinians for their diaspora.

let's agree, that the "onorous" Islamist Palestinians are driving out the Christians. (though the Palestinian charter will be revoked in the future)

You would then think that these same Christians would in the diaspora speak out? But Sabeel blames Israel. Sabeel is the voice of Palestinian Christians.

So let's understand this, you are saying Israel is totally blameless in the current climate has no responsibility for the diasporan Palestinian,s and the Palestinian Muslims are solely to blame for everything that is going on, including the occupation, and the Christians leaving?

and that the root cause of all this, is Islam, even though the exact same problems (including suicide bombers started by Tamils, and also used by kamikaze,) exist in other societies.?

Daniel Greenfield @ the Sultan Knish blog said...

A part of our exile ended in the year 5708 when for the first time in a long time, Israel was under Jewish rule again. But that exile is still not over.

As Rabbi Yehuda Halevi wrote

My heart is in the East, and I am at the ends of the West;

How can I taste what I eat and how could it be pleasing to me?

How shall I render my vows and my bonds, while yet

Zion lies beneath the fetter of Edom, and I am in the chains of Arabia?

Today there are large numbers of Muslims in Israel, and hardly any Jews left in the Muslim world.

Even Muslim splinter groups like the Bahai can only find safety among Jews.

Because oddly enough the terribly tolerant Muslims are actually intolerant of everyone. Even their own.

When Shia and Sunni can't even tolerate each other, what hope is there for non-Muslims to be tolerated by them?

Andy said...

And she goes on and on....
Talk is cheap.

In the mean time in the REAL world.....

On Tuesday
Islamists kill some budhists in Thailand. They are not people of the book so they are worse than Christian or Jews.
Islamic zealots bomb a musical show as it is un-Islamic killing several students.
On Wednesday
Muslim terrorsists killing more than 30 peaple in Iraq. Women, children aan men. If they can't find any Christians or Jews they go for each others throat. Shiites are apostates, Sunis have left the true path...kill...maim...bomb.
Al-Shabaab islamists in Somalia attck rivals and kill women and children in their attack.

Islam is peace...kill the kafur....Allah knows best.

Fatima said...

"Taking apart Fatima's claims can educate people on both the tactics and mindset of our enemies."

Poor you. Having to make do with fake allies. I almost feel sorry for you.

As i said, your worst enemies are amongst your own. I didn't come here as an enemy, i saw your post somewhere and liked it. I don't agree with your other nonsense though, which i read, you sit here at a blogger blog, spewing your hatred against islam it seems, don't you have a job or something worthwhile to contribute to society?.

as for Frank he is a Christian "zionist" feeling threatedned because his pagan cult is being exposed. he would rather keep up the pretence of fake friendship. and Frank? I am not who you claim i am.

When you feel threatened by your enemy enough to want to censor, you have already LOST

Daniel Greenfield @ the Sultan Knish blog said...

Finally, this is the Jewish view of Islam from those who lived under it. And part of a prayer composed by Rabbi Yitzchak ben Saadia that we say every year.

"How can I come to you when those who serve other things will not permit me to serve you
They seek to divide me from you
But I have not forsaken your trust
How have I been exiled and go and wander through every road and district
And those who have made Moloch their king, rule over me

How broken is the kingship of the kingdom of your treasured people
and the rulership is extended for the rulers of evil people...
I have wept and shed tears from the yoke of Ishmael's children
And they mock me, Come and Hear
And I like a deaf man do not hear

How the Arabs have surrounded us and the sons of Ham cut us off
Who call a prophet a man who never prophesied
They build and assemble their armies and troops
And me, where shall I go?

How have my stars darkened and the planets turned back
And those who serve abominations (idol worshipers) have befouled my lands...
With all their strength and power they pain and grieve me
But I trust in your kindness and my heart will rejoice

How can the enemies of all that is pure reside in Zion...
And they are rich and princes raised up high...
How came they to dwell in my temples
and made themselves a dwelling there
From the top to the bottom
and from the bottom to the middle

Remember us and recall us with your salvation
from those who worship things that are not you
Hurl them out and swallow them up from your holy dwelling place
And I through your great kindness will at last enter your house"

Daniel Greenfield @ the Sultan Knish blog said...

"When you feel threatened by your enemy enough to want to censor, you have already LOST"

Then I assume you're admitting that Islam has already lost... because censorship is widespread in the Dar Al Islam.

When you people can't even look at a cartoon without going on a killing spree, and when your OIC passes resolutions that the rest of the world should censor what Muslims find offensive... haven't you lost?

Daniel Greenfield @ the Sultan Knish blog said...

Oh and I don't know how you define enemies, but I define them as people who are trying to kill me and my people, or spreading propaganda on behalf of those who are.

Fatima said...


I believe that once a Palestine is created, Jews who were once resident in Muslim lands will return. Gaddafi has already made overtures to that effect.

I know that a lot of the Sefardim diaspora is not happy in Israel.

I support the right of palestinians to a state, either Israel should take them in and give them citizenship, or compensate them financially, in the new state of Palestine.

I also support the right of Jews who left because of the hostilities at the time Israel was created, to return or be compensated by the countries they left.

this is most probably what will happen in future. The land should be shared not fought over.

Andy said...

How did I miss that...?

Fatima: "We mustn't forget that some of greatest murderers of modern times were Jewish"

Wow, an anti-semetic Muslim, how unusual.

"....Consequentiy, trenches were dug in the market-place in Medina, and the men of Qurayza were brought out in groups and their necks were struck...."

Hitler, von Ribbentrop and Heinrich Himmler were full of praise of the muslims who volunteerd in large numbers to aid the disposal of the 'undesirables'. There were at least a dozen exclusively Muslim SS regiments and batallions. The 13th Waffen Gebirgs Division der SS "Handzar" did well in Yugoslavia, murdering countless Jews.

You are keeping up a proud Muslim tradition Fatima!

Daniel Greenfield @ the Sultan Knish blog said...

Uh huh. The Jews will run back to the countries they were driven out of, persecuted in, where their property was seized and their children kidnapped.

Even now the last remaining exodus continues. The Jews of Syria have mostly escaped. The last Jews of Yemen are departing. They will not be coming back.

The land does not need to be fought over, but Muslims are fighting over lands on virtually every continent. That's what comes of the belief that Islam should be dominant everywhere in the world.

Ivan said...

Sultan you have monumental patience, as you say you have to use this opportunity to educate on the evil that is Islam is. Fatima Beevi or more likely Omar exemplifies the typical Muslim apologist, impervious to reason or facts, used to dissimulation. Their type has been dealt with exhaustively Robert Spenser and Dr Bostrom among other others but they keep popping up to vex the soul. And Fatima don't imagine for one moment that any Christian or Jew reading your tripe budged an inch, your taqiyya is so 1990s. Nowadays even kids can see that it is tripe.

The Infidel Alliance said...


We must understand that Islam's prime directive is the militant conquest of the entire world, mandated by Allah & Muhammed in the Koran & this hadith: Bukhari (8:387) – Allah’s Apostle Muhammed said, “I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: ‘None has the right to be worshipped but Allah'"

Can it be any more crystal clear? Islam's minions have been dutifully following this mandate for 1,400 years, since the time Muhammed left Mecca for Medina.

What we are facing is nothing less than an ISLAMIC WORLD WAR that rages on every continent except Antarctica, against everyone, everything, everywhere “non-Islamic”.

Let’s look at the FACTS.

Islam against:
- the Catholics in the Philippines (routine slaughter & beheadings)
- the Christians in Indonesia (routine slaughter & beheadings)
- Australian tourists in Bali (blown up…twice)
- the Buddhists in Thailand (routine slaughter & beheadings)
- the Hindus & Sikhs in India (hundreds of years battling the Islamic Jihad)
- the Jews in Mumbai (slaughtered)
- the Zoroastrians & Baha’i in Iran (virtually exterminated)
- Islamic converts to Christianity in Afghanistan (death fatwa)
- ancient Buddhist statues in Bamiyan, Afghanistan (blown up)
- the Chaldean Christians in Iraq (routine persecution, slaughter & church burnings)
- the Jews in Israel (routine attacks against civilians, threat of 2nd genocide)
- the Jews in Yemen (nearly exterminated)
- S. Korean & German tourists in Yemen (blown up)
- the Coptic Christians in Egypt (routine persecution, slaughter & church attacks)
- the Christians & animists in Sudan (genocide)
- the Christians in Kenya (constant Jihadist threat from Obama’s homies)
- the Christians in Nigeria (routine Jihadist attacks)
- U.S. embassies in Tanzania & Kenya (blown up)
- the athiests in Europe (the prime target)
- the native French in Paris (torched car terrorism)
- Jews in Paris (read the grisly story of Ilan Halimi, a Jewish shop clerk who was kidnapped, tortured and killed in 2006)
- the native Swedes in Malmo (Islamic rape brigades)
- the native Dutch in Amsterdam (routinely terrorized)
- Dutch politicians (Geert Wilders & Ayyan Hirsi Ali – death fatwa)
- Dutch cinematographers (Theo vanGogh savagely murdered by an Islamist in broad daylight)
- Dutch cartoonists (Kurt Westergaard – death fatwa)
- Dutch newspaper editors (Flemming Rose, Jyllands-Posten’s culture editor – death fatwa)
- Train commuters in Spain (blown up)
- Tube commuters in London (blown up)
- Airports in Scotland (blown up)
- Jews in Argentina (blown up)
- Jews in Caracas (blown up)
- Twin Tower office workers in N.Y. (blown up – twice)
- Defense workers in the Pentagon (blown up – airliner jihad)
- Army/Navy military recruiters in Little Rock (gunned down by an Islamist)
- Soldiers in Ft. Hood Texas (gunned down by an Islamist turncoat)
- Pedestrians at the U. of N. Carolina (run down with an SUV by Islamist)
- Journalists like Daniel Pearl (savagely decapitated by Islamists)
- Nick Berg, Kim Sung-il, Piotr Stanczyk, Jack Hensley, Eugene Armstrong, Paul Johnson (savagely decapitated by Islamists)
- Jewish centers in Seattle (slaughtered by Islamist Jihadist)
- Jewish centers in Toronto (slaughtered by Islamist Jihadist)
- Infidel Delta Airlines passengers (underwear bomber)
And on, and on, and on………

It is Islam against everyone, everything, everywhere that is not Islamic.

It is Dar al-Islam against Dar al-Harb. Islam against us, not us against them.

Let’s face the facts and call it what it is. It is not a ‘War on Terror’ against a few ragtag misunderstanders of Islam. It is nothing less than: THE ISLAMIC WORLD WAR.

THE ISLAMIC WORLD WAR – Muhammed’s legacy.

~ The Infidel Alliance

The Infidel Alliance said...


To understand Islamic thought, we must understand the man who founded Islam, the 'holy prophet' Muhammed.

The Koran 68:4 upholds Muhammed as " exalted [standard of] character." Islamic tradition upholds Muhammed as 'al-insan al-kamil' or 'the perfect man', to be emulated by all Muslims.

The hard truth about Muhammed, as recorded in the Islamic 'holy' texts, is that far from being a a 'holy prophet' Muhammed was a sadistic sociopath.

Muhammed was a murderer, torturer, amputator, decapitator, slaver, looting stealing thief, rapist, human trafficker, sex trafficker, child rapist, sexual deviant, genocidist and self proclaimed terrorist.

Muhammed was perhaps one of the most vile men in the pantheon of human history, a brutal barbarian afflicted with narcissistic personality disorder, consumed by unquenchable sexual lust, greed and power.

By any objective standard, Muhammed should have been incarcerated not venerated, reviled not revered.

Every pathology that afflicts Islam comes directly from this sick man, Muhammed, and the world suffers because of him.

~The Infidel Alliance

The Infidel Alliance said...

Dear 'Fatima',

Thank you for joining this discussion.

As a Muslima, do you agree with Koran 68:4 which upholds Muhammed as an exalted standard of conduct?

Do you support as higher human morality decapitation, amputation, torture, enslavement, child sex, murder and terrorism?

Can you truly, morally, ethically defend the actions of your barbarian prince?

~The Infidel Alliance

Mikec said...

Saudi Arabia should be a model of 'peace' if Fatima was correct, it is not, it is a country of fear and loathing, where the metawa (religious police) will beat a woman for wearing the wrong type of glasses or send children back into a burning building to get properly 'dressed' so that 'men' are not filled with lust by seeing children in nighties.

If you want to see little children begging at street corners, go to Saudi, where a wife can be thrown out on the street, with her children, with nothing (and is not allowed to 'earn' a living either).

Islam has influence in the west, mainly in humanist atheist circles where Islam is viewed as a wonderful tool to discredit 'religion' and destabilize society ready for the 'change', as well as being a cash cow to prop up failed amoral fiscal policies.

The Judeo-Christian ethic is to love neighbours and enemies, Islam's ethic is to behead them, there is a difference....

Anonymous said...


You probably know that you are wasting your time with "Fatima". I've seen this type before in the Middle East -- conversations begin in a moderate tone but very quickly, especially if you appear non-judgmental, their true colors emerge, the wild accusations begin and the anti-Semitic venom flows freely. It must be very deeply embedded under too many layers of Islamic hate and fog, beyond the reach of reason. You also see it among the Left in the West, for reasons you have already explored quite convincingly.

Daniel Greenfield @ the Sultan Knish blog said...

yes indeed, there's no actual reason or consistency under there, just the same fanatical devotion wrapped up in phony moderation

HermitLion said...


This whole discussion should be framed somewhere so it can serve others facing the same taqiyya spouting copycats. I've encountered at least one repeating the same sort of lies recently, and while, like you said, there's no getting to them, countering their arguments can help others see what we're truly dealing with.

It does get tedious after a while, as their posts seem to grow longer and longer, so, once again, my deepest respect for your show of patience and the ability to refute everything in a composed manner.

Daniel Greenfield @ the Sultan Knish blog said...

I consider this a frame of sorts

Anonymous said...

6 years later, islam is at it again

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