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Tuesday, October 30, 2007

Between LGF and Brussels, the America/Europe Split on the War

Let me say first of all that I respect the different sites involved in this and I link to most or all of them. In many ways what we're seeing is not so much an ideological split, as a split between America and Europe, because as I wrote before, America and Europe face two different conflicts.

In WW2, Nazism was an abstract for Americans but a reality for Europeans. Then as now, many Europeans collaborated with the enemy and weak Europeans governments paved the way for the Nazi war machine. America was able to sweep in and save the day, mainly because America was not compromised by either Communism or Fascism. Americans could ride in on a great white horse because they were free of having to choose one or the other. Americans did not have to choose Fascism or Communism or face being squashed between the two. They could simply be Americans and be on the right side.

Today, Islam is an abstract even for those Americans who like LGF'ers are vigorous campaigners against Islamofascism. It's something they read about and something they know about, but unless they live in Europe, in Israel or in one of the few places in the United States that are Islamicised, such as Dearborn, it's not something that is truly real for them. That's not the case in Europe.

The threat of Islam to America consists of terrorist attacks, attacks that can kill thousands, maybe even millions. As bad as that is, the threat of Islam to Europe is simply annihilation. Take a look at Turkey and then imagine that as a European country. That's what Europe faces as its most inevitable scenario. That's not what America faces. America will never have an Islamic majority. A number of European countries are already near the point where the majority of their population under 18 is Muslim.

The key threat of Islam to America is terrorism. The key threat of Islam to Europe is complete conquest. Let's get that straight.

The kinds of methods propounded at LGF can be enough to deal with Islam's threat to America, but they won't save Europe. Conservative European governments in France and Holland are already cracking down on Imams, beefing up law enforcement and criticizing Islam, demanding secularization. And all of that looks good in headlines but amounts to nothing more than keeping the lid on, until the pot boils over.

A European country with an Islamic majority will not remain European. It will become Islamic. It doesn't matter what laws you pass, it doesn't matter how often ministers yell at Imams or what changes they make to the curriculum. With the Islamization of Turkey, there is no such thing as a secular Muslim country. EuroMuslim countries won't be the exception to the rule. Trying to subdivide moderate Islam from regular Islam or fighting something called Islamofascism won't work.

In the end a European country with a Muslim majority will either become South Africa, a dictatorship where a European minority desperately tries to maintain the character of the country against swelling protests and terrorism, or it will simply become Turkey or Malaysia. There is only one third option and it is not one that LGF or most American conservatives will countenance but one that is inevitable for both the salvation of Israel and Europe. Deportation.

No nation can survive with a hostile majority or even a large hostile minority. Americans have generally been understanding of the situation Israel faces. Europe is perhaps two decades or even less behind the curve on Israel. France already has its own Intifada. So does Holland. The problem is not as simple as kicking out a few Imams or putting more police on the street. It is a clash of civilizations and a clash of two nations. The problems are not racial, but neither are they simply cultural. They are national. And the only solution is an exchange of populations.

India and Pakistan ended their fratricidal bloodshed by such means. France went home from Algeria, but Algerians insist on remaining in France. Jews left the Arab lands, but Arabs insist on remaining in Israel. The situation is unworkable and there is only one hope for national survival in these nations. Deportation.

Any Muslim in the country illegally or without permanent citizenship, should be deported. Any Muslim in the country who has more than one wife, who has harbored illegal immigrants or committed fraud in bringing relatives to the country, should be deported.

Any Muslim in Europe belonging to a mosque on record as promoting terrorism or the overthrow of the national government and its replacement by an Islamic one, should be deported along with their entire family. Any Muslim who refuses to follow local laws or who lives outside the law, should be deported. Any Muslim belonging to a mosque which refuses to renounce and utterly reject the Islamization of the country and attacks on native Europeans by Muslims, should be deported.

It's not a solution, but it's a start. In the end the all too American LGF is uncomfortable with European and Jewish nationalists who recognize that national survival is tied to national integrity. Americans have the luxury of refusing to understand that and damning those who propound it. But no luxury lasts forever. Habla Espanol?

17 comments:

Anonymous said...

" America was able to sweep in and save the day, mainly because America was not compromised by either Communism or Fascism"

I wish this were the case, but since America was ill equiped for the war, the Russians largely saved the day.

Keli Ata said...

A strong national and cultural identity is essential to a nation's survival. I think where Europeans got into trouble is that in their arrogance they probably expected their new Muslim immigrants to fall in love with their way of life and adopt an appreciation for the European lifestyle and values and simply blend into society; that they'd become more European and less Muslim/Arab in their thinking and behavior.

Most other immigrants to foreign countries typically face problems of racism, marginalization and poverty. With successive generations the children of immigrants become more mainstream and integrated and rise above this. This isn't happening in the European Muslim community, though.

Insidiously the problems began with Europeans tolerating Muslim/Arab practices and lifestyles. Cultural diversity and all.

As additional immigrants entered Europe they maintained their anti-Western biases and outright hatred, while at the same integrating themselves into politics to assert their cultural rights. Good cop/bad cop in a way.

Becoming "European" on the surface to gain influence and power while at the sametime asserting their cultural and religious rights.(note: I saw Saudi Princess Louwla al-Faisal on Good Morning America. She was saying that things such as wearing an abaye was cultural not religious. There seems to be a recognition that identifying things as religious is offensive in the west but saying something is cultural is more accepted).

So to make a long story short--Europeans made the fatal mistake of believing Muslim immigrants would adopt their wonderful culture and way of life by osmosis. Arrogant and a little childish on their part, of course. They can crack down on imams all they like but it's not doing much to rid their countries of the immigrants.

Europe's problem is out of control. They can't deport millions of immigrants.

America and Israel can still do something to prevent this sort of invasion and destruction of identity by limiting immigration and strict enforcement of immigration and other laws.

I agree that America's biggest threat is from terrorism. But, if we accept Muslim immigrants en mass and make allowances for their culture and religious practices and otherwise bend over backwards to accomodate them (as in Dearborn and to a much lesser extent Buffalo) we could well end up in the same boat as the Europeans.

Sultan Knish said...

Anonymous,

America was better equipped than Russia for the war. In fact America supplied Russia via lend lease with everything from 3 million boots for the Russian army to powdered milk to Douglas airplanes. For decades later, Russia was still using some American equipment.

The Russians were completely unprepared for the German invasion, equipment and tanks sat disassembled and the Russians got pounded by the German war machine. They pulled back and pulled back until the Germans overextended themselves. In the process millions of lives were lost. The Russians threw UNARMED soldiers into combat just as cannon fodder. Hundreds of thousands of lives were wasted in completely pointless suicide operations.

The Russians simply took advantage of how much the Germany Army had overextended itself to begin a counterattack. Without the rest of the equation, the Germans would have broken the Russian counterattack leading either to a bloody WW1 style stalemate in the East for years or the Germans breaking the stalemate with the next generation of weapons and tactics.

It was America who actually broke Germany in both wars, advancing industrial production at a fantastic rate and meeting force with equal force.

Sultan Knish said...

K.A.

yes, the basic problem is that Europe wanted cheap labor and they've ignored the cultural implications of what they were doing. When you add a low European birth rate to the creation of self-segregated Muslim communities, you create a formula for suicidal self-annihilation. Bundle it up with political correctness that forces political and civic systems to ignore what's going on and it gets really bad

EB said...

"Today, Islam is an abstract even for those Americans who like LGF'ers are vigorous campaigners against Islamofascism."

I totally disagree with that statement. Here's why...

Unlike WWII when America was #1 tired of war #2 still wanted to remain separate and not get involved, and #3 the war was across an ocean and they were not affected; this war is all encompassing to America.

This was the very first time a non-American came to American soil and attacked a Nation, not a person. Not only did they attack America, but they killed thousands of people. That has an effect. No longer is it abstract when you feel real fear. It becomes personal and an issue you follow and watch.

I do agree that Americans do not face what many European Countries have set themselves up with. We did it with other people, namely the Hispanics and not Muslims. But, it is also important to note that the average European did recognize that bringing in "cheap" labor was a very bad idea. They complained and yet their governments went ahead. England in particular had many English men protesting and warning before it became a reality.

I do agree with deportation. The ones you named were a good start. The only problem is that even though it's a real option, no one takes it seriously. We see that in America with the illegal immigrants. But with that example it is clear cut, they came here illegally, work illegally, and so on and so on, yet deportation is not even on the table.

The world has very real problems and those Americans who would see Islam as an abstract problem for some other people to deal with are dead wrong. What happens all over the world affects us and the last thing America or the rest of the world needs is an Islamic Europe, which will happen sooner than later.

Sultan Knish said...

9/11 did have an impact on many people, but I would compare that to the impact Pearl Harbor had an Americans vs the impact of the Japanese occupation on the Philippines

9/11 was bad but the US government was quick to externalize it and emphasize that American Muslims are good people and even with terrorism, Americans don't face the kind of situation Europeans do. The closest as you mentioned is the reconquista. Now imagine that with people who are your enemy and want to grind you into the dust happening on a nationwide scale.

In the end the problem comes down to cheap labor. Industrial countries import cheap labor. Liberal governments discover that minorities are a reliable source of captive votes, especially if they're kept angry and resentful. Conservative movements respond with uncertainty, unwilling to confront the hard options on one side and settle for demanding the band aid of integration

Lemon said...

Russia saved the day Horse Hockey and bull feathers.

When asked when the second world war was won, the man who wrote the definitive book on the subject said that the war was won the second America was bombed at Pearl Harbor.
His name has gone from my head at the moment but the quote will remain forever.

Lemon said...

It was not the first time a non American came to American soil to attack. That happened in the Revolutionary war in a way
and again in the War of 1812.

How history is being rewritten by the youth of America!

Lemon said...

America does face takeover by Mexicans. And once that happens America will no longer be America either. It will become a third world catholic nation with no freedom and a horrid government.
I see little difference between Catholicism and Islam.

Tiklish said...

Europe is being conquered by Muslims, and America is being conquered by Mexico. Either way, we're done, as long as not hurting the feelings of those conquering us is more important than survival. What makes it even worse is that we taxpayers are being forced to pay out welfare and give up our jobs to our conquerers. In some sick way it's justice though, since the leaders of both Europe and America push Israel to surrender to and feed, clothe, and arm those intent on annihilating her.

EB said...

Lemon, my comment of "never has a non-American come to American soil and attacked a Nation" was in reference to Terrorism, not American wars. Even if you take the Revolutionary War and the War of 1812, both were over American independence from the British. Not the same thing as men coming over here to blow up buildings and the Pentagon and who knows what else.

And also there is a HUGE difference between Catholicism and Islam. First of all, while the Hispanic populations might be majority Catholic, they are far from the Catholics in history as well as the Vatican today. There is a huge mixture of Catholicism and the other gods of their past. They do not seek world domination with all people under the flag of Catholicism. The worst fear would be conversion. The number of Muslims in the Hispanic world is growing fast, I believe it can be compared to the growing Muslim population in China.

But Sultan I do agree with you. I don't see a solution working besides deportation, but just like in Israel, it's a word you hear, but it is yet to be done. And through all of the waiting for a "viable and good" soultion for all sides, the numbers grow.

My only point would be that if the American people are that unaware of the problem we will all face if Europe becomes a majority Muslim, then we are in more trouble than I thought we already were.

Lemon said...

EB I think Pearl Harbor qualified for that.
As regarding the Catholics not being like Muslims, well read your history. Catholicism is entirely about world domination.
Mohammedans were quiet for many years before the began their jihads again.
Just because Catholicism has been a bit quiet for a while doenst mean their desire for world domination has left. It is the core of the religion.
The inquisitions , the backing of Spanish conquests were all about that. The holy Roman Empire was entirely Catholic and entirely about world dominion.

Sultan Knish said...

americans are being brainwashed in regard to the muslims, I don't think the propaganda really takes hold for most but americans are also innately well meaning people who like to think well of others

Keli Ata said...

Pesonally, I think that attitude is the prevailing one in the US and Israel. We assume our enemies are not quite as evil as they truly are. That with only a little kindness and understanding they'll become more reasonable. With exposure to civilization they'll become civilized.

In basic terms, we keep expecting Muslim terrorists to have a magical transformation ala 'The Fair Lady.'

Lemon, I'm with you on the Catholic Church. And with the church moving backwards instead of forward with this Hitler Youth pope I can definitely see it becoming much more powerful it it were to have third-world followers under its control.

More Catholics are embrassing the Latin Mass and Pre-Vatican II thinking. Things are getting worse not better.

Andy said...

Heard about the Laredo scenario? And our government is doing nothing and the media does not even report on it. I found it by accident as I clicked on a link to Americatalkback.com on Newsmax.com. The top story was the kidnapping and killing of Americans on the border to Mexico in Laredo, TX. The politicians are not willing to hear the pleas of the local sheriff and if it wouldn't have been for Glen Beck this morning I wouldn't even heard of it at all. Habla EspanoL? Try Sharia Law. It can't happen in America? Maybe. But I saw it on many corners in German cities where I stayed for four weeks just recently. It gives me a chilling effect knowing the inevitable future that my country will be heading to and maybe America after all with the help of the left. But the left won't know what they are dealing with till they wake up and it's too late.

Keli Ata said...

Yikes, I meant "embracing" what was I thinking?!

One final thought--Sultan writes that terrorism for Americans is an abstract concept. This is true. The evidence of this is seen in the loud protest against the war, the priority given to civil rights versus the right to live and not be blown into a million pieces. And I am afraid to say, a lot of people still regard 9/11 as an isolated incident.

Unlike Israel we aren't faced with rockets everyday, and unlike the Europeans or even Autralians we aren't surrounded by menacing Muslims starting riots.

Lemon said...

Since illegal immigration in the USA has increased our level of violent crimes, including rape and molestation of children is up by frightening and dramatic amounts!!
Look up the statistics. We are under seige from criminals who are entering our borders illegally.
The borders should be shut down tight and illegals sent home quickly.
Do away with the concept that children born here to illegals are Americans. That is the stupidest thing ever.

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