Articles

Monday, November 16, 2009

What Muslims Owe America

If you listen to the outraged wails of leftists and Muslims, you might reasonably be under the impression that the United States is in the business of persecuting Muslims. The reality is radically different. If anything American policies should have made us the Muslims' best friends.

Before 9/11, the United States had fought two wars on behalf of Muslims, the Gulf War under George Bush Sr. and the Kosovo War under Bill Clinton. In fact during the second half of the 20th century, the only wars that the United States fought that were not against Communism or Nazism-- were fought on behalf of Muslims. That is not a fact that you will glean from any of the usual media portrayals of the United States foreign policy as hostile to Muslims. In fact US foreign policy was about as helpful to Muslims as you can imagine.

Until 9/11, the United States had never invaded and occupied a single sovereign Muslim country. The closest it came was the First Barbary War in 1801, in response to piracy against American vessels and the liberation of  North Africa from Hitler's Vichy allies in WW2. And of course the misguided attempt at participating in a peacekeeping force in Beirut.

Not only that, America had developed much of the oil wealth that would keep the Gulf States in gold, skyscrapers and slave labor. And when the leaders of the Gulf States seized American oil companies, the United States government did not fight a war, as England did when Nasser nationalized the Suez Canal, instead the US government paid oil companies to take the loss... out of taxpayer money.

The fear of a Communist takeover helped turn America into one of the biggest patrons of Muslim countries, from the Middle East to Turkey, Indonesia and Pakistan. America willingly closed its eyes to Indonesia's genocide in East Timor, and even supplied them with weapons. America provided the weapons and funding that Pakistan would channel into the Taliban. And naturally we ignored Turkey's pesky little genocide of the Armenians and avoided ever discussing the issue.

So by 9/11, not only had America repeatedly sent soldiers to fight and die for Muslims in two wars... but it had robbed its own taxpayers rather than challenge them over the nationalization of the assets of American companies, and had proved willing to aid and even overlook the genocides of Muslim regimes. So naturally by the warped logic of leftists and Muslims... American foreign policy was "oppressive" to Muslims.

The root of the leftist critique of American foreign policy typically rests on two planks. The first blames America for supporting dictators in Muslim countries. This would be a more legitimate critique if there were any free and democratic Muslim countries around. As it was, America simply supported whoever was in power and wasn't allied with the USSR. This might have been an immoral policy, but during the Cold War it was a continuation of the same kind of thinking that caused the US to ally with the USSR against Nazi Germany.

The left's implication was always that by supporting dictators in Muslim countries, the United States was preventing the rise of more legitimate governments. It is not clear where these legitimate governments were or how they were ever supposed to arise. Syria is a dictatorship without us ever supporting Assad. Egypt was a dictatorship when it was allied with the USSR under Nasser. It is still a dictatorship now that it is allied with us under Mubarak. When the Shah of Iran was overthrown, the left wing appeasement corps working for Jimmy Carter decided not to interfere. The result was not a democratic government or even a leftist one, but a radical Islamist one under the Ayatollahs.

The second plank is of course Israel. The United States did decide to finally cultivate Israel as an ally back under JFK in the 60's. This was in sharp contrast to far longer US ties with the House of Saud or the Eisenhower Administration's willingness to destroy England's economy in order to protect Egypt's nationalization of the Suez Canal. And the United States has provided Israel with billions in aid. As well as providing billions in aid to Egypt and Jordan. Not to mention the aid given to Turkey and Pakistan. Or the cost of the first Gulf War undertaken to liberate Kuwait and protect Saudi Arabia from Saddam Hussein.

As a matter of fact the US relationship with the Saudis has been far more uncritical and generous than with Israel. At no point in time has the US tried to force the Saudis to stop treating half their population like cattle, end their dependence on Southeast Asian slave labor... or even done much of anything for US citizens who find themselves in Saudi jails on trumped up charges.

There is of course no doubt that US arms sales to Israel have angered Muslim nations, just as US arms sales to Taiwan have angered China. But at the same time there is also no doubt that the same general sense of hostility would exist in both cases, even if the US is able to sell out Israel as successfully as it sold out Taiwan.

In any case, to argue that American support for Israel oppresses Muslims, is to argue that American support for any country that Muslims have a grievance against-- which at latest count includes a sizable portion of the globe, oppresses Muslims. As such the United States would not be allowed to have any allies that have not first been approved by Muslims. Which would turn over American foreign policy to Islam.

If America is forbidden from allying with both Muslim countries and non-Muslim countries, that Muslims oppose, then American foreign policy would be in the hands of Muslims. Which is exactly what Muslims and their American spokesmen accuse Jews of.

Furthermore, the countries hostile to Israel are the very same Arab dictatorships that we are being hypocritically assailed for supporting. Which means that this plank also resolves itself into one of those arguments that we can't win. If we support existing Muslim governments, we're oppressing Muslims. If we interfere with them, we're oppressing Muslims. If we support non-Muslim governments in countries that have Muslim minorities... you guessed it, we're oppressing Muslims.


When the tide of logic passes, it becomes quite clear that both these planks are hollow and rotten. They represent Catch 22 arguments in which America loses no matter what it does. If we support Arab countries, then we're upholding their tyrannical regimes. If we fail to support them, then we're hostile to the Muslim world. If we create a Palestinian Arab state, then we're to blame because it's not big enough. If we wash our hands of the whole affair, then we're isolationists.

The bottom line is that there is absolutely nothing that we can do that will not lead to accusations that we are oppressing Muslims, followed by terrorist attacks.

But the fact of the matter is that the United States has done more for the Muslim world than anyone else. When Afghanistan was invaded by the USSR, no Arab country stepped forth in their defense. Instead they all remained silent because of their own Soviet ties. Instead it was the United States that sent arms and advisors to the Mujahadeen.

After the overthrow of the Shah, the United States could have provided legitimacy to any one of a number of factions, instead Carter decided to legitimate the Ayatollah Khomeni. The result was the first Shiite Islamist regime in the world. And it would not have happened had the United States not undermined the Shah and then treated Khomeni as Iran's future under the Green Belt Strategy.

When Saddam invaded Kuwait and threatened Saudi Arabia, it was the United States that led a coalition to liberate Kuwait and back Saddam down. When Yugoslavia tried to preserve itself against Kosovar Albanian Muslim terror, it was the United States that bombed Yugoslavia, and handed the Muslim Albanians their victory. And after decades of Soviet backed terrorism by Arafat had failed to destroy Israel, it was the United States that stepped in and muscled Israel into providing him with a state.

Indeed the rise of Islamism can be credited to American foreign policy. While the USSR tried to back Arab Socialist states such as Saddam's Iraq, or Assad's Syria or Nasser's Egypt-- the United States embraced Islamist tyrannies such as the House of Saud and General Zia-ul-Haq in Pakistan. We backed the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan over the Soviet puppet regime. We continued funding Arafat's Fatah, even as it became one of the world's leading innovators in suicide bombings and martyrdom. With Kosovo, we helped create the first Muslim state in Europe, and a direct route for smuggling slaves and drugs into Western Europe, as we fought on the same side as Al Queda and Iran... against our former Serbian allies.

If anything the Muslims of the world should be getting down on their knees and thrusting their asses into the air five times a day to thank us, not Allah. Allah did not provide the Stingers with which to shoot down Russian aircraft, or fund the ISI's terrorist factories and back a regime which all but legalized the rape of women. Allah did not send thousands of aircraft to bomb Serbian civilians until they finally gave in and signed on to the Muslim rape of Kosovo. Nor did Allah's tanks protect Mecca and more importantly Riyadh from coming under the jurisdiction of Uday and Qusay Hussein.

Finally America provided a hospitable home for Muslim immigrants, giving them profitable employment, letting them bring along their entire clans and not asking too many questions about the money they sent to "charities" back home. And for all this, we were repaid with 3000 dead in a single day. Nor for this alone, but also because we had helped liberate Afghanistan and protect Saudi Arabia. For all the countless billions spent and the lives lost protecting Muslims, for being an open people willing to take in the stranger and ask no questions, four of our planes were hijacked (a feat previously held by Arafat's goons, who had already received a state from us) and aimed at the World Trade Center, the Pentagon and the White House.

And afterward did Americans react by going out and beating random Muslims or rounding them up in stadiums... as leftist feverish fantasies would have it? No. Instead America embraced Muslims as never before. We fought two wars, the bulk of which we spent trying to rebuild infrastructure, put up generators and supply food, water and medicine to two hostile Muslim countries. We taught tolerance to each other until it was coming out of our ears. We reassured ourselves that every religion has a few or a few hundred million bad apples. We made a point of getting to know a local Muslim family. And of course we assured them that we didn't hold it against them.

Just as we're doing right now. Over and over again. When a Muslim screaming Allah Akbar opens fire, we assure ourselves that most Muslims are good people. By contrast when a Muslim gets a flat tire, he blames the CIA. Despite everything that America has done for Muslims-- our only reward has been hatred and ingratitude. Maybe instead of thinking of what America owes them, it's time that Muslims everywhere thought about what they owe America.

33 comments:

Anonymous said...

Well of course, USA is a nation in dar al harb, a nation of dirty kuffars. Islam is superior, you - all kuffar nations - ALWAYS owe Islam. You are either ibids or jizya paying dhimmis and you only exist to serve your muslim masters.

When will the world start seeing Islam for what it actually is and not how the west think it is or should be? Especially those who live in "Great Satan".

ProudBrit.

Miriam said...

Muslims.... owe.....America??!!

Do you want their heads to explode? Such a question would make many Muslim's blood boil.

Will48 said...

"And for all this [decades long support of Islamism], we were repaid with 3000 dead in a single day. "

A fitting payment indeed. The chickens did come home to roost that day.

What will be one for the current Muslim appeasement frenzy?

Lemon said...

No good deed goes unpunished as they say.
Mohammedans(I refuse to use the terms they DEMANDED we use) take advantage time and again.

Proud Muslim said...

Dear Sultan

A Proud Muslim here:)

Your whole article above is based on a false premise, ie. That the US did what it did for the Muslims.

It did not. Even the Kosova war, was ultimately for itself as a buffer against russian influence in the Balkans. If rUssia had supported that move, the US wouldve been on the other side.

The USA did what it did, for itself, if Muslims benefitted in the process sometimes, that doesn't mean that certain americans can pretend it was for Muslisms.

If it had, it wouldn't have taken any actions detrimental to Muslims.


The war in Afghanistan agaisnt russians was only won because the ISI (pakistan) were on the side of the USA. That is why the USA lost the current war in Afghan, and Iraq. Too much hostility,

With a quarter of the worlds population Muslism, the USA cannot survive with ahostile Muslim population, It realised that. 60% of it's trade is with Arab and Muslim countries. Even China and India have sizeable (and rising) Muslim populations.

Islam is the only religion in the world gaining converts from everywhere, all others (christianity too) is on the decline.

Having said all that, there is no reason for the USA to do anything for us, for us to be friends with the USA. As long as a state or nation is not hostile, or lending support to hostile elements that would undermine, we can establish friendly relations with it, regardless of what religion it is.

The Muslim attitude to the USA has changed since the Obama election. Finally, those who are our enemies in the USA cannot claim to be speaking for the entire USA when they say that Muslims should regard the US as best friends.

All the actions that the US took above were not supported by the right wing. So why do you include "we" in the equation, when you yourself and the rest of the right wing are "anti Obama", and anti everything that the US did above usually under pressure from "leftists"?

I'm curious as to how you can include the right wing in the "we". when you say "we" the USA?

Just to clarify, Muslims know that the left in the USA is our friend, hence the 90% vote that Obama got from Muslims and his popularity in the Muslim world.

In fact that is why the democrats put Obama in Charge. Which senator was it who said in response to right wing smears against his "islamic background" that Obama's Muslim name is something they intend to use to their advantage?

Rememeber the "we are all Hussein now" campaign that took off after the right wing smears?

That received a lot of publicity in Arab and Muslim lands.

I'm a Muslim and i don't see the USA (4 million Evanglelicals converted to Islam anyway.) as an enemy. CAIRS founder is a WASP convert.

Nor do i (or other Muslims) see Jews as an enemy as you inferred in your article. Anyway, 45 Jewish congress members in Obama's governance, means that the last administtiation was not representative of AMerica:) and if close to 80% American Jews and 90% of Muslims voted for Obama, then they have more in common with each other i'd say. It's those who oppose who are polar opposites, like yourself.

If you were not so full of hate toward's Arabs and Islam and Muslims (hating Islam is hating Muslims, i don't buy the crap line that bigots use, when they say they hate Islam but not Muslims. Muslims are Islam.) , i'd invite you to my home and order a Kosher meal from your favourite restaurant, (kosher is Halal, so even breaking bread wouldn't be a problem):)

God bless America.

Sultan Knish said...

Proud Muslim,

Really how does the United States benefit from a Kosovar Albanian state? And if the only goal was to restrain Russia, which at that time was completely impotent under Yeltsin anyway, why did we fail to go to war for the Catholic Croats, but only for the Muslim Albanians?

Again why has the US repeatedly fought on behalf of Muslims, when neither Communism nor Nazism was at stake, but not for anyone else?

Newsflash, we haven't lost a war in Afghanistan.

Our top 10 trading partners are Canada, China, Mexico, Japan, Germany, the UK, South Korea, France, Holland and Brazil. Together these account for 64 percent of imports and exports.

Not a single Muslim country on the list. What a surprise, because you people are not exactly big on creating things, besides hiring foreign workers to drill oil for you.

"Just to clarify, Muslims know that the left in the USA is our friend, hence the 90% vote that Obama got from Muslims and his popularity in the Muslim world."

Oh yes they are your friends at that. And you'll treat them just like Muslims have always treated the left. Iran is a case in point.

The only question is whether their heads will be under the knife, first or second.

Your taqiyya is wasted here, but I'm sure that some Obama supporters would love to hear about it.

Oh and Hallal, not Kosher. Just another on the long list of things you got wrong.

Anonymous said...

Very good stuff, if you weren't offending someone it would be proof that you were not hitting the mark. The puzzle of international relations is a nut that most would not attempt to crack, but you seem to have quite a talent for putting the immense jigsaw puzzle together. Carry on, you have a frequent reader in me.

John
Massachusetts Conservative
(not a Republican anymore)

Lemon said...

I like the photo of them bowing down to the Capital building.
Its nice for a change. :D

Keli Ata said...

Me too, Lemon:)


Muslims do indeed owe us but that Thank You card will forever be lost in the mail.

Ivan said...

What struck me about the Proud Muslim is the lordly way he lied and his complete lack of logical coherence. These Muslims lie, in the hope that through repetition, their (always) self-serving version of events prevail. The Sultan had to merely search the internet for a few seconds to produce the list of trading partners of the US. Proud Muslim ought to lay off the computer.

Will48 said...

Keli - sorry to repeat myself, but you already got that thank-you card on 9/11. Really.

Meanwhile, at the Washington Post's Hasan's PPT slide (GA2009111000920) #45, titled "Offensive Islam In the Future", we read:

Al-Bukhari (2222) and Muslim (155): The Messenger of Allah said: "By the One in Whose hand is my soul, soon the son of Maryam will descend among you as a just judge. He will break the cross, kill the pigs and abolish the jizyah, and money will become abundant until no one will accept it."

Translation: the Islamic messiah is promised to destroy Christianity, kill the Jews, and disallow anyone to pay for their life anymore. There will be so many people killed, that their money will be free for all "believers" to take and will become worthless.

Nice vision of the future, which is of course exactly in tune with the central premise of Islam - religion of peace and brotherly love among the Muslims, and enslavement and death for everyone else. Apparently enslavement too won't be allowed anymore, according to this Hadith.

Soviet war in Afghanistan is largely misunderstood. They were the good guys there really, fighting against the jihadists. I don't believe for a minute the usual Muhammedan inventions about poisoned candy for the simple reason that they've used that lie against the Israelis too. They always lie, period.

Not many know that the communist revolution in Kabul was purely domestic initiative, which took Kremlin completely by surprise. Contrary to what the Islamists would have you believe, there were large secularist/moderate forces in Afghanistan, as well as in all of Central Asia. Zbignew "shoot the IAF planes down" Brzezinski has publicly admitted to starting supporting mujahedeen full half year before the Soviet involvement, with the explicit goal of provoking the USSR response, so Russian claims of countering the CIA influence were true after all. This is what the Green Belt strategy was/is all about, anyhow.

The strategic USA/Saudi alliance is in place since the 1930s when the US put the wahhabist House of Saud in power over the British-backed Hashemites. Everything else the US do is subject to this. The free flow of oil in the WWII was predicated by the Saudis on American non-involvement in any attempts to rescue the Jews of Europe, for example. That is the real reason why not one American bomb was dropped on the gas chambers, nor on any railroads leading to them.

How's that "detrimental for Muslims", the Proud one? If you really were a Muslim, you'd submit to the will of your God as it is reflected in human history, i.e. when He granted Israel victory over your repeated attempts to defy His will in your 100 year war against Israel.

Sultan Knish said...

Muslims tend to lie and believe their own lies. It's a bit of warped psychology.

Proud Muslim said...

Sultan, the basic gist of my post was that when you say the US, and “we” that doesn’t make sense, how can you and others here say “we” when you are anti Obama, anti-muslim, anti democrat, anti left wing?

The subjects I touched upon didn’t really do justice to what I meant as im pressed for time, but since you raised them, I’ll briefly go through what you said, and i also have to split this post, as i couldn't post it, your commenting system is primitive


“Really how does the United States benefit from a Kosovar Albanian state? And if the only goal was to restrain Russia, which at that time was completely impotent under Yeltsin anyway, why did we fail to go to war for the Catholic Croats, but only for the Muslim Albanians?”

It was done to bring stability to the region, something the US needs as Central Asia has oil,. I concede though, It was Bill Clinton, and General Wesley Clark who are owed a debt of gratitude here, both Democrats and both anti neo con who are to get the accolades from Muslims for bombing the former Yugoslavia. Kosovans certainly regard them both as hero’s so we do give thanks where it is due. I don’t deny that individual Americans, and American groups have helped Muslims at times, and when that happens and if it is unconditional of course we will express gratitude. Why shouldn’t we? Didn’t the US aid to Indonesia (earthquake) get a thank you? Didn’t the Kosovan’s and the Balkan’s thank Bill Clinton (Democrat) for bringing the war to an end?

My point was that the right wing regime that you support which is full of Islamophobes, neocons, Christian end time Armagedonites (who tried to turn the US into a theocracy) enemies of the US with allegiances to foreign powers is no friend of the Muslims. But as I said, we don’t hold all of America responsible for those whom are our enemies. Certainly the current regime (Obama’s) isn’t. Democrats generally are not, and the last Republican regime was an enemy. Bush was caught with his pants down admitting he had no chance of winning a war against Islam (which is what his advisory team of neocons’ was advocating) that’s why they called it “war on terrror”

BUSH: 'IF IT'S ABOUT CHRISTIANITY VERSUS ISLAM, WE'LL LOSE' - TOP
Atlanta Journal, 9/17/06
http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/shared-blogs/ajc/politicalinsider/entries/2006/09/17/an_evening_with_ann_and_lynn.html
Though he said this session was supposed to be off the record, Gallagher described it at some length, including Bush's observation to the right-wing radio jocks that "the War on Terror has to be about right versus wrong, because if it's about Christianity versus Islam, we'll lose."

Proud Muslim said...

“Your taqiyya is wasted here, but I'm sure that some Obama supporters would love to hear about it.”

Taqiya means dissumulation, its something that Shia’s have used to pretend to be Sunni if their lives are under threat. Since I began my first post here stating I’m a Muslim, how can you accuse me of Taqiya? I’m not a Shia pretending to be a Sunni. Besides, dissumulation was something that Ibn Maimun (Rambam) ruled as permissible for Jews under threat too, so what’s your point? The Marrono’s practiced it, the Druze practice it, but anyway I digress

“Oh and Hallal, not Kosher. Just another on the long list of things you got wrong.”

You missed out “is” I presume? I didn’t say Halal is Kosher, I said Kosher is Halal. So you’re the one who got it wrong.

“Again why has the US repeatedly fought on behalf of Muslims, when neither Communism nor Nazism was at stake, but not for anyone else?”

And I repeat, why do you include yourself in that “we?” Did you support Bill Clinton’s support of Kosova? The Bush regime, wanted and lost a war with Islam. We don’t owe them anything. That is why Iraq is refusing to give oil contracts to Americans. In a different era, they would have given priorty to America.

“Newsflash, we haven't lost a war in Afghanistan. “

Afghanistan is a lost war at present, even the British are admitting it, and Obama is having problems getting troops from Europe and Nato, if Pakistan, doesn’t help it’s for sure it’s a lost war unless the US invades Pakistan, which is a war it could never win on it’s own, and Pakistan cannot help a hostile US. The point being the US is beholden to others if it wants to succeed in Afghanistan.
continued....
“Our top 10 trading partners are Canada, China, Mexico, Japan, Germany, the UK, South Korea, France, Holland and Brazil. Together these account for 64 percent of imports and exports. “

Sorry, i meant to say, 60% arab trade is with the USA, and rising.

Bush went cap in hand after 9/11 to Saudi Arabia to halt the flow of capital that was leaving the US for China, and South America and Europe? Special deals were made (educational and others to keep investments in the US, from the Gulf, not just from the Gulf but from other Islamic countries.

continued...

Proud Muslim said...

“Not a single Muslim country on the list. What a surprise, because you people are not exactly big on creating things, besides hiring foreign workers to drill oil for you.”


It is true that for the past few centuries Muslims have been at the bottom but so what? We already gave so much to humanity. but this time was predicted and we know it’s outcome. This is only a temporary phase. Nationalism and dicatorships were foretold by the Prophet, that’s why God put the oil there. Take it up with God, . Even thought corrupt dictatorships squander wealth, the Almighty keeps his side of the bargain and looks out for us. What he gave us, he gave noone. Our 1400+ year history bears witness to that. As for not being creative, check the muslimheritage.com website below, it’s used in the university curriculum worldwide, it’s an educational site. Learn from it. American, Russian and European Muslims are wealthy and well educated over and above the native population. I can bring web links but it will make this post longer than what it is. No nation, religion or group of people have enriched or gifted humanity more than Muslims. The Quran (secret of our succes) being the reason.

It could be argued that Muslims should be asking the US and the West for a thank you for our contributions and for laying the foundations for knowledge in every subject. So be careful what you ask for

The French philosopher Gustave le Bon stated in his book The Civilization of the Arabs: “We must bear in mind that the Arabs and the Arabs alone are the ones who guided us to the ancient world of the Greeks and Romans. The Islamic civilization was one of the most amazing that history has ever known. “
---------
Discover the Muslim origins of many Western discoveries!

Brought to you by the makers of www.MuslimHeritage.com, 1001 Inventions is a unique UK based educational project that reveals the rich heritage that the Muslim community share with other communities in the UK, Europe and across the World.
------------
How Islam Created the Modern World," written by award-winning author Mark Graham.
http://www.amazon.com/How-Islam-Created-Modern-World/dp/1590080432/sr=8-1/qid=1157638890/ref=pd_bbs_1/102-0126589-7657723?ie=UTF8&s=books
This is the story of how Muslims taught Europe to live well and think clearly. It is the story of how Islam created the Modern World.

The 57 member OIC is forming a trade bloc, which will put the wealth of the Ummah under one umberella, as well as a common currency, educational and media bloc, with individual contries under the banner of Islam. This will make it the richest trading bloc in the world. These countries need developing, and have potential for growth and investment. Shariah finance is already popular in the US.

That is one the reasons that the US is seeking to mend relations with the Muslim world, In the future, oil wont be traded in the dollar.

-

PS. TO Ivan44
I didn't lie but your comment shows you for what you are. Oh and if i recall, how many Americans say the neo cons fed it lies for the 8 years they in power? Are you trying to project yourself onto us?
as i said in previous post, i meant to say 60% of Arab trade is with the US.

the US cannot survive with the plans that you neo cans had for it. That is why you were booted out in Nov 2008, never to return.

It's a new America.

Sultan Knish said...

"Sultan, the basic gist of my post was that when you say the US, and “we” that doesn’t make sense, how can you and others here say “we” when you are anti Obama, anti-muslim, anti democrat, anti left wing?"

We are Americans, collectively. Our tax dollars are still paying for those policies. Our soldiers still served, even if they wouldn't have supported Obama.

It was done to bring stability to the region, something the US needs as Central Asia has oil,

That fails to answer my question as to why the US keeps fighting wars for Muslims, and not say for the Catholic Croatians.

"Didn’t the US aid to Indonesia (earthquake) get a thank you?"

It got increased Islamic radicalization

"Didn’t the Kosovan’s and the Balkan’s thank Bill Clinton (Democrat) for bringing the war to an end? "

Unlike Muslim countries, we're not a dictatorship. It was the American people who sent their soldiers to fight, not Bill Clinton.

"My point was that the right wing regime that you support which is full of Islamophobes, neocons, Christian end time Armagedonites (who tried to turn the US into a theocracy)"

What regime was that? The one whose leader was holding hands with the Saudi King? The one that received CAIR in the White House? The one that kept repeating that Islam is a Religion of Peace?

Right, now pull the other one.

Sultan Knish said...

Taqiya goes well beyond that, as you know quite well.

"You missed out “is” I presume? I didn’t say Halal is Kosher, I said Kosher is Halal. So you’re the one who got it wrong."

No, you missed out on American slang.

And Hallal is not Kosher, nor is Kosher, Hallal.

"Afghanistan is a lost war at present, even the British are admitting it, and Obama is having problems getting troops from Europe and Nato,"

Last I checked the Taliban were hiding out and the US and its allies hold Kabul. But if you're sure they're winning, hurry up and join them.

Sultan Knish said...

"It is true that for the past few centuries Muslims have been at the bottom but so what? We already gave so much to humanity."

Oh you guys gave a whole lot. You wiped out entire cultures and religions. Enslaved millions. And Islam today is synonymous with illiteracy, inbreeding and violence.

Please, stop giving us things.

"No nation, religion or group of people have enriched or gifted humanity more than Muslims."

Uh huh. Compare what the Jews contributed to the world and what Muslims contributed.

You don't have to list the Koran, even though your stole nice chunks of it from us.

"The 57 member OIC is forming a trade bloc, which will put the wealth of the Ummah under one umberella, as well as a common currency, educational and media bloc, with individual contries under the banner of Islam. This will make it the richest trading bloc in the world. These countries need developing, and have potential for growth and investment. Shariah finance is already popular in the US.

That is one the reasons that the US is seeking to mend relations with the Muslim world, In the future, oil wont be traded in the dollar."


In the future we won't be dependent on oil, so the "Ummah" will have to find something else to trade. Hey what's the going price of sand?

Will48 said...

Proud muzlim: "Our 1400+ year history [...]"

ehm, well, it's 1400- , isn't it?

or can't you count properly from 622 to 2009?

Anonymous said...

Which Islamic states with no oil, and negligible or zero non-muslim populations, with sharia law, is doing well? Can anyone list them by themselves, and also list them to developed and developing countries?


From this report I am not sure there are many, if any.
UN Arab Human Development
http://www.arab-hdr.org/

Proud Muslim said...

“And Hallal is not Kosher, nor is Kosher, Hallal.”

I don’t think it is for a non Muslim to dictate what is Halal. Did any Muslim ever tell you what is Kosher? Regarding Kosher being Halal, Most of the world’s Kashrut clientele is Muslim, even in Israel why do you do business with Muslim Israelis then? When the British had the land under their control and migration of Jews was underway in Palestine last century, the Arabs wouldn’t eat the food of the new Jews coming in and settling because they thought they were pagan Russians. They did so after your Rabbis assured them they were Jews too and the food was Kosher. So why did they do that if you’re saying kosher isn’t halal. It’s not your business, telling us how to interpret.

“Uh huh. Compare what the Jews contributed to the world and what Muslims contributed.”

Jewish influence is less than Muslim, because it’s a national religion, confined to Jews. The Quran was sent to humanity. Certainly Jews have enriched humanity too, but that is due to the few who bother to keep the laws, most don’t, but God speaks through the Torah too. A study in Europe concluded that it was Torah learning that is the reason for Ashkenazi intelligence being above average. In pagan/Christian Europe it was only the Jews who had a traditon of learning, as opposed to in the Caliphate where all Book people were encouraged to learn too. The Christians in the Caliphate were not like the Christians in Europe, because they were influenced by Islam and more enlightened.

“You don't have to list the Koran, even though your stole nice chunks of it from us”

Anyone who wants to discredit a religion call it a copy. If God didn’t tell us so in the Quran, we would believe that Judaism was copied too. Secularists and atheists believe that Moses copied Judasim from a former monotheism, King Sargon of Akkad and the Noah flood being borrowed from the Epic of Gilgamesh.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sargon_of_Akkad
Mythology (Richard McLaughlin)
The Hebrews may have developed monotheism from Akhenaten
www.maryforrest.com/mythology/#judaism


The Quran came from God. But God calls the Quran “The Reminder”, that’s why we say it was “revealed”, it was first given on Sinai hence the similarities and why we accept all monotheists. However, you don’t have to be Msulim to be righteous. Unlike other religions we consider all Monotheists righteous. If we stole it, then how can The Prophet be the most influential man in history? Proof of The Quran’s divinity is that one letter hasn’t changed just like God said it wouldn’t. God protects it, and there is secular proof of that. An independent 40 year study in Germany concluded that the old and new testaments have been changed over the centuries the Quran has only ever had one format, not one letter unchanged. How did the Prophets prophecies come true as predicted? If it is copied from Torah, why did Ibn Maimun copy our religious codification and apply it to Judaism?
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/MFAArchive/1990_1999/1999/1/Great%20Rabbis%20of%20the%20Muslim%20Empire
“The new methods that developed in the vast Muslim Empire for the communication of knowledge and the codification of law were employed by the Rabbis in order to keep in contact with the ever-expanding Jewish Diaspora.
Of the innovations that the rabbinic world inherited from the Muslim empire, this probably had the greatest impact.”

Proud Muslim said...

“What regime was that? The one whose leader was holding hands with the Saudi King? The one that received CAIR in the White House? The one that kept repeating that Islam is a Religion of Peace?”

But neocons were against that, Bush was merely their figurehead to manipulate, so you were not supportive of those acts. You still havn’t addressed my single question. I addressed you as a neocon supporter, asking you why we should thank neocons. You being a tax payer isn’t enough of a reason, because tax payers pay to the treasury. They cannot dictate how their tax is paid, once they pay up. That decision is for the politicians. So don’t hide behind that. That is the reason that Al Qaeda use when they justify attacks on Americans. Their reasoning is wrong and so is yours.

CAIR is an american institution, it has a right to the White House. The holding hands with King Saud, that was all an act, a pretence of friendship for convenience. Otherwise no oil. I wasn’t talking specifically about Bush, but about neocons who misled him, like Cheney, Wolfowitz, Perle, and others. Bush was merely a stupid figurehead. Nor did I say all Republicans are enemies, I meant the clique of neocons who were Bush’s advisers.


“Oh you guys gave a whole lot. You wiped out entire cultures and religions. Enslaved millions. And Islam today is synonymous with illiteracy, inbreeding and violence.”

Neocons are responsilbe for more bloodshed than anyone today, not Islam. And please don’t talk about wiping out cultures and religons, history records the tolerance of Islam. Yagoda Ginrich a Jew in Stalins regime,killed over 10 million Christians. Even Saddam didn’t match Hitler, and Pol Pot, Mao and others, the Bolsheviks, were mainly from your tribe a minority but still numerically influential , what do you have to say about that? Atheist Jews are still halachically Jews, so where was their neshama? Yagoda Ginrich makes Osama bin Laden look like a boy scout. The few extremist regimes we had in our history were an exception not the rule, and The Prophet warned us to eschew extremism in faith. The Muslim Brotherhood is not traditional Islam, nor will it survive. The illiteracy in Muslim coutnries is changing, and it’s there because of corrupt dicatatorships and nationalism not Islam which encourages learning. Things are changing though as you will see 20 years from now. In the UK, the natives are converting to Islam to emulate the success of Muslims in all walks of life from scientific, to entertainment, to sport to educational and charity, art, etc. and it's only a minority. See what happens in 20 years times when Europe and Russia is majority Muslim. Nearly all natives will have converted by then, or at least significant numbers. USA too, same trend.

There is no difference between the neocons, the muslim brotherhood and Al qaeda, they’re all different sides of the same coin and everythign they touch turns to dust because evil never prospers.

Sultan Knish said...

"I don’t think it is for a non Muslim to dictate what is Halal."

Actually it's your Imams who say that. Though perhaps they're simply trying to maintain their monopoly on the Halal market.

"Most of the world’s Kashrut clientele is Muslim"

Wow, you're just on a roll when it comes to making things up, aren't you.

"Jewish influence is less than Muslim, because it’s a national religion, confined to Jews."

Yet despite that, Jews have contributed far more to the world than Muslims, go figure.

"The Christians in the Caliphate were not like the Christians in Europe, because they were influenced by Islam and more enlightened."

Yet oddly enough the Christians in the Caliphate are backward compared to Christians in Europe. And you just made an argument for Ashkenazi intelligence.

You really have a problem making a consistent argument.

"Anyone who wants to discredit a religion call it a copy.

In your case it's an actual copy, because you took the holy books of the Jews and Christians who lived among you and made a slave's imitation of the work of his masters.

"The Quran came from God. But God calls the Quran “The Reminder”, that’s why we say it was “revealed”, it was first given on Sinai hence the similarities and why we accept all monotheists."

Except the ones you behead, enslave and all the rest you reduce to Dhimmis.

"If we stole it, then how can The Prophet be the most influential man in history?"

Christians make the same claim about Jesus. Buddhists make the same claim about Buddha.

Of course if Islam succeeds in destroying global civilization and bringing on a new dark age, then you might have a point for Mohammed.

why did Ibn Maimun copy our religious codification and apply it to Judaism?

I think you mean Rabbi Moshe ben Maimon, who was well versed in Greek philosophy and used that as the system of codification. The same systems that the Muslim world took from the Greek, at least the parts that they didn't burn at Alexandria.

Sultan Knish said...

"But neocons were against that, Bush was merely their figurehead to manipulate, so you were not supportive of those acts."

You've completely stopped making sense.

So according to you Bush was the figurehead of the neocons, yet doing things the neocons didn't approve of?

You need to work on those conspiracy theories a little more.

Also you should probably define exactly what and who you mean by neocons, if you're going to continue advancing this line of argument.

I hate to break the news to you, but members of the Clinton Administration have been called neocons too.

"They cannot dictate how their tax is paid, once they pay up. That decision is for the politicians.

...who are elected by the people. You Muslims really need to figure out this whole "democracy" thing eventually.

"CAIR is an american institution, it has a right to the White House."

CAIR is a Saudi institution and more to the point, a Muslim institution.

"The holding hands with King Saud, that was all an act, a pretence of friendship for convenience. Otherwise no oil."

All international alliances are a pretense of friendship, some more sincere than others. The bottom line is that the Bush Administration had close ties to the Saudis.

"I wasn’t talking specifically about Bush, but about neocons who misled him, like Cheney, Wolfowitz, Perle, and others. Bush was merely a stupid figurehead. Nor did I say all Republicans are enemies, I meant the clique of neocons who were Bush’s advisers."

You mean Wolfowitz who has a Saudi girlfriend?

Cheney who was Chairman of Haliburton, which moved its HQ to Dubai?

"Neocons are responsilbe for more bloodshed than anyone today, not Islam."

Really? Did Neocons massacre the Armenians and the Assyrians? Did Neocons invade and oppress major portions of the known world? Did Neocons wipe out entire cultures in the Middle East and brutally repress others?

Oh my bad, that was you guys. And it's still you guys.

"Yagoda Ginrich a Jew in Stalins regime,killed over 10 million Christians"

And he, along with Stalin, Kruschev and all the rest killed in the name of Communism. By contrast Mohammed and his successors killed millions in the name of Islam.

"The few extremist regimes we had in our history were an exception not the rule, and The Prophet warned us to eschew extremism in faith."

Which he demonstrated by killing everyone who opposed him or just had property or money or women he wanted, and ethnically cleansing the entire region of Jews and Christians.

"The Muslim Brotherhood is not traditional Islam, nor will it survive. The illiteracy in Muslim coutnries is changing, and it’s there because of corrupt dicatatorships and nationalism not Islam which encourages learning. Things are changing though as you will see 20 years from now."

Actually things are worse off than they were under European colonialism. Hell you guys are rivaling Sub-Saharan Africa, despite all that oil money.

"In the UK, the natives are converting to Islam to emulate the success of Muslims in all walks of life from scientific, to entertainment, to sport to educational and charity, art, etc. and it's only a minority."

Yes, and they're emulating the incredible Muslim success by going off to Pakistan to kill other Brits.

"See what happens in 20 years times when Europe and Russia is majority Muslim. Nearly all natives will have converted by then, or at least significant numbers. USA too, same trend."

Well let's see. France and England have major spikes in crime rate and violent crimes.

So I'm gonna go ahead and project, widespread illiteracy, a lot of burkas, no culture or human rights and a lot of goat meat in restaurants.

Anonymous said...

I love your blog Sultan Knish! Keep up the good work!!!

JoJoJams said...

The Global Jewish population is approximately 14,000,000, or about 0.02% of the world population.

They have received the following Nobel Prizes:
>
>Literature:
>1910 - Paul Heyse
>1927 - Henri Bergson
>1958 - Boris Pasternak
>1966 - Shmuel Yosef Agnon
>1966 - Nelly Sachs
>1976 - Saul Bellow
>1978 - Isaac Bashevis Singer
>1981 - Elias Canetti
>1987 - Joseph Brodsky
>1991 - Nadine Gordimer World
>
>Peace:
>1911 - Alfred Fried
>1911 - Tobias Michael Carel Asser
>1968 - Rene Cassin
>1973 - Henry Kissinger
>1978 - Menachem Begin
>1986 - Elie Wiesel
>1994 - Shimon Peres
>1994 - Yitzhak Rabin
>
>Physics:
>1905 - Adolph Von Baeyer
>1906 - Henri Moissan
>1907 - Albert Abraham Michelson
>1908 - Gabriel Lippmann
>1910 - Otto Wallach
>1915 - Richard Willstaetter
>1918 - Fritz Haber
>1921 - Albert Einstein
>1922 - Niels Bohr
>1925 - James Franck
>1925 - Gustav Hertz
>1943 - Gustav Stern
>1943 - George Charles de Hevesy
>1944 - Isidor Issac Rabi
>1952 - Felix Bloch
>1954 - Max Born
>1958 - Igor Tamm
>1959 - Emilio Segre
>1960 - Donald A. Glaser
>1961 - Robert Hofstadter
>1961 - Melvin Calvin
>1962 - Lev Davidovich Landau
>1962 - Max Ferdinand Perutz
>1965 - Richard Phillips Feynman
>1965 - Julian Schwinger
>1969 - Murray Gell-Mann
>1971 - Dennis Gabor
>1972 - William Howard Stein
>1973 - Brian David Josephson
>1975 - Benjamin Mottleson

JoJojams said...

The below statistics (after my rant) says it all -- And Joachim Martillo -- take your satan inspired religion and shove it.... Even the alleged "golden age" of Islam...was only due to you barbarians conquering more advanced societies, and as Sharia was imposed, those societies crumbled into the dungheaps of what is now "muslim society". Quit blaming the west and Israel. The cause of your backwardness is Islam, and your "prophet" is rotting in hell.
--

Interesting Statistics...
Interesting comparison of the middle east -
The Global Islamic population is approximately 1,200,000,000, or 20% of the worlds population.

They have received the following Nobel Prizes:
>
>Literature:
>1988 - Najib Mahfooz
>
>Peace:
>1978 - Mohamed Anwar El-Sadat
>1994 - Yaser Arafat:
>1990 - Elias James Corey
>1999 - Ahmed Zewa
>
>Economics:
>
>(none)
>
>Medicine:
>
>1960 - Peter Brian Medawar
>1998 - Ferid Mourad
>

MORE IN NEXT POST

JoJoJams said...

>1964 - Konrad Bloch
>1965 - Francois Jacob
>1965 - Andre Lwoff
>1967 - George Wald
>1968 - Marshall W. Nirenberg
>1969 - Salvador Luria
>1970 - Julius Axelrod
>1970 - Sir Bernard Katz
>1972 - Gerald Maurice Edelman
>1975 - Howard Martin Temin
>1976 - Baruch S. Blumberg
>1977 - Roselyn Sussman Yalow
>1978 - Daniel Nathans
>1980 - Baruj Benacerraf
>1984 - Cesar Milstein
>1985 - Michael Stuart Brown
>1985 - Joseph L. Goldstein
>1986 - Stanley Cohen [& Rita Levi-Montalcini]
>1988 - Gertrude Elion
>1989 - Harold Varmus
>1991 - Erwin Neher
>1991 - Bert Sakmann
>1993 - Richard J. Roberts
>1993 - Phillip Sharp
>1994 - Alfred Gilman
>1995 - Edward B. Lewis

The Jews are not promoting brain washing the children in military training camps, teaching them how to blow themselves up and cause maximum deaths of Jews and other non-Muslims. The Jews don't hijack planes, nor kill athletes at the Olympics. The Jews don't traffic slaves, nor have leaders calling for Jihad and death to all
the Infidels.

Perhaps the world's Muslims should consider investing more in standard education and less in blaming the Jews for all their problems.

Regardless of your feelings about the crisis between Israel and the Palestinians and Arab neighbors, even if you believe there is more culpability on Israel's part, the following two sentences really say it all:
If the Arabs put down their weapons today, there would be no more violence. If the Jews put down their weapons today, there would be no more Israel

JoJoJams said...

Oops!~ Sorry for the broken post! It needs to be read last entry to first. I'm new to this site, and didn't know how to submit the post. Sultan, would it be possible to reorder those posts?? Also, there was another post in the middle with dozens and dozens more Jewish nobel prizes received that even more shows the difference between the fruits of Islam, and the fruits of Judaism.
If you can reorder the posts, cool.

JoJoJams said...

>Economics:
>1970 - Paul Anthony Samuelson
>1971 - Simon Kuznets
>1972 - Kenneth Joseph Arrow
>1975 - Leonid Kantorovich
>1976 - Milton Friedman
>1978 - Herbert A. Simon
>1980 - Lawrence Robert Klein
>1985 - Franco Modigliani
>1987 - Robert M. Solow
>1990 - Harry Markowitz
>1990 - Merton Miller
>1992 - Gary Becker
>1993 - Robert Fogel
>
>Medicine:
>
>1908 - Elie Metchnikoff
>1908 - Paul Erlich
>1914 - Robert Barany
>1922 - Otto Meyerhof
>1930 - Karl Landsteiner
>1931 - Otto Warburg
>1936 - Otto Loewi
>1944 - Joseph Erlanger
>1944 - Herbert Spencer Gasser
>1945 - Ernst Boris Chain
>1946 - Hermann Joseph Muller
>1950 - Tadeus Reichstein
>1952 - Selman Abra ham Waksman
>1953 - Hans Krebs
>1953 - Fritz Albert Lipmann
>1958 - Joshua Lederberg
>1959 - Arthur Kornberg
>1964 - Konrad Bloch
>1965 - Francois Jacob
>1965 - Andre Lwoff
>1967 - George Wald
>1968 - Marshall W. Nirenberg
>1969 - Salvador Luria
>1970 - Julius Axelrod
>1970 - Sir Bernard Katz
>1972 - Gerald Maurice Edelman
>1975 - Howard Martin Temin
>1976 - Baruch S. Blumberg
>1977 - Roselyn Sussman Yalow
>1978 - Daniel Nathans
>1980 - Baruj Benacerraf
>1984 - Cesar Milstein
>1985 - Michael Stuart Brown
>1985 - Joseph L. Goldstein
>1986 - Stanley Cohen [& Rita Levi-Montalcini]
>1988 - Gertrude Elion
>1989 - Harold Varmus
>1991 - Erwin Neher
>1991 - Bert Sakmann
>1993 - Richard J. Roberts
>1993 - Phillip Sharp
>1994 - Alfred Gilman
>1995 - Edward B. Lewis

The Jews are not promoting brain washing the children in military training camps, teaching them how to blow themselves up and cause maximum deaths of Jews and other non-Muslims. The Jews don't hijack planes, nor kill athletes at the Olympics. The Jews don't traffic slaves, nor have leaders calling for Jihad and death to all
the Infidels.

Perhaps the world's Muslims should consider investing more in standard education and less in blaming the Jews for all their problems.

Regardless of your feelings about the crisis between Israel and the Palestinians and Arab neighbors, even if you believe there is more culpability on Israel's part, the following two sentences really say it all:
If the Arabs put down their weapons today, there would be no more violence. If the Jews put down their weapons today, there would be no more Israel

May there be true peace in Israel, soon.

JoJoJams said...

Note to sultan knish:: If this post take fully, then please post this, and delete my earlier attempts to post. Also, delete this preface. :-P
I am breaking it in to two posts. Please ensure they post in order!

-----

The below statistics (after my rant) says it all -- And to any mohameddan-- take your satan inspired religion and shove it.... Even the alleged "golden age" of Islam...was only due to you barbarians conquering more advanced societies, and as Sharia was imposed, those societies crumbled into the dungheaps of what is now "muslim society". Quit blaming the west and Israel. The cause of your backwardness is Islam, and your "prophet" is rotting in hell.
--

Interesting Statistics...
Interesting comparison of the middle east -
The Global Islamic population is approximately 1,200,000,000, or 20% of the worlds population.

They have received the following Nobel Prizes:
>
>Literature:
>1988 - Najib Mahfooz
>
>Peace:
>1978 - Mohamed Anwar El-Sadat
>1994 - Yaser Arafat:
>1990 - Elias James Corey
>1999 - Ahmed Zewa
>
>Economics:
>
>(none)
>
>Medicine:
>
>1960 - Peter Brian Medawar
>1998 - Ferid Mourad
>

****

The Global Jewish population is approximately 14,000,000, or about 0.02% of the world population.

They have received the following Nobel Prizes:
>
>Literature:
>1910 - Paul Heyse
>1927 - Henri Bergson
>1958 - Boris Pasternak
>1966 - Shmuel Yosef Agnon
>1966 - Nelly Sachs
>1976 - Saul Bellow
>1978 - Isaac Bashevis Singer
>1981 - Elias Canetti
>1987 - Joseph Brodsky
>1991 - Nadine Gordimer World
>
>Peace:
>1911 - Alfred Fried
>1911 - Tobias Michael Carel Asser
>1968 - Rene Cassin
>1973 - Henry Kissinger
>1978 - Menachem Begin
>1986 - Elie Wiesel
>1994 - Shimon Peres
>1994 - Yitzhak Rabin
>
>Physics:
>1905 - Adolph Von Baeyer
>1906 - Henri Moissan
>1907 - Albert Abraham Michelson
>1908 - Gabriel Lippmann
>1910 - Otto Wallach
>1915 - Richard Willstaetter
>1918 - Fritz Haber
>1921 - Albert Einstein
>1922 - Niels Bohr
>1925 - James Franck
>1925 - Gustav Hertz
>1943 - Gustav Stern
>1943 - George Charles de Hevesy
>1944 - Isidor Issac Rabi
>1952 - Felix Bloch
>1954 - Max Born
>1958 - Igor Tamm
>1959 - Emilio Segre
>1960 - Donald A. Glaser
>1961 - Robert Hofstadter
>1961 - Melvin Calvin
>1962 - Lev Davidovich Landau
>1962 - Max Ferdinand Perutz
>1965 - Richard Phillips Feynman
>1965 - Julian Schwinger
>1969 - Murray Gell-Mann
>1971 - Dennis Gabor
>1972 - William Howard Stein
>1973 - Brian David Josephson
>1975 - Benjamin Mottleson
>1976 - Burton Richter
>1977 - Ilya Prigogine
>1978 - Arno Allan Penzias
>1978 - Peter L. Kapitza
>1979 - Stephen Weinberg
>1979 - Sheldon Glashow
>1979 - Herbert Charles Brown
>1980 - Paul Berg
>1980 - Walter Gilbert
>1981 - Roald Hoffmann
>1982 - Aaron Klug
>1985 - Albert A. Hauptman
>1985 - Jerome Karle
>1986 - Dudley R. Herschbach
>1988 - Robert Huber
>1988 - Leon Lederman
>1988 - Melvin Schwartz
>1988 - Jack Steinberger
>1989 - Sidney Altman
>1990 - Jerome Friedman
>1992 - Rudolph Marcus
>1995 - Martin Perl
>2000 - Alan J. Heeger
>

Sultan Knish said...

I can't edit or reorder comments, and I'm not sure what you want me to delete or keep

Will48 said...

JoJoJams -

are you saying that Proud Musim here is none other than Juan Carlo Santos Martillo Ajami?

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