Thursday, March 23, 2006

Hold Your Nose and Vote for Netanyahu or Cut Your Own Throats

For all that the future of Israel is at stake in this election, it is a surprisingly quiet one. Prime Minister Olmert has refused to participate in television debates and as Kadima's Tzahi Hanegbi has said, they want a boring election. A quiet election serves the incumbents best.

With the takeover of the Labor Party by the Histadrut, the left wing Labor set has departed Labor and the Likud's own left and the careerists all joined together with Kadima. This leaves Kadima with the lion's share of the center-left vote. It has also meant that most of the contest for votes is happening on the right and instead of joining together to fight Kadima, much of the right-wing and religious parties are fighting the Likud and each other.

Mafdal\Ehud Leumi and Shas and Hazit and Herut are busy bashing the Likud and arguing why they deserve the votes. Aside from Shas, they have a point. They do represent a lot of the correct ideas that the Likud has increasingly abandoned about fighting terrorism and retaining Israeli sovereignity but the reality is if they cared about those things, they wouldn't be in the race.

It won't matter whether Hazit or Herut gain two or three Knesset seats, it won't matter how many the Ehud Leumi\Mafdal bloc will get since they will inevitably split up again; if Kadima forms the new government. All that these right wing factions will accomplish is to compete for the privilege to make brief passionate speeches on the Knesset floor before being voted down by a Kadima-Shas-UTJ-Arab or a Kadima-Shinui-Meretz-Labor coalition. None of this will matter if Olmert is able to remain in power and hand over the Yehuda and Shomron to Hamas and then divide up Yerushalayim.

Netanyahu failed on Hevron. His term was embattled and disastrous. He showed a lack of backbone and allowed Clinton to manipulate and use him. But sadly enough the Likud is the only party with a chance to defeat the Kadima hegemony. If Netanyahu wins, Israel and the Jewish people will have bought ourselves a little time. If Netanyahu loses and Olmert wins, we may be facing the dismantling and destruction of the State of Israel. Such considerations must override any ethnic loyalties, any votes for Haredi and religious parties like UTJ or Shas, which may be legitimate votes in peacetime when the main issue is funding schools and communities, but are completely untenable in such a crisis, especially when they have a history of joining the coalitions that approved Oslo and nearly the division of Yerushalayim and the Disengagement, all in the name of the Shekel.

They must even override the appeal to the purity of ideals represented by the right-wing parties because ultimately the purity of our ideals will not matter when the bulldozers are demolishing our homes and the batons are falling on the heads of our children. Kadima can be stopped at the ballot box but once it succeeds at the ballot box, there is little outside of a civil war that will. We have the choice of holding our noses and voting for Netanyahu or cutting our own throats.


kahaneloyalist said...

The Rambam rules in Hilchot Melachim that it is issur to do anything to bring to power a government that doeasnt follow the Torah. Even if Netanyahu is better than Olmert he still doesnt believe in the Torah. I think it is better to fight for good and lose, then support the lesser evil and win.

Also the New Sanhedrin has ruled in regards to elections. I think that should be the basis for which party we vote for.

sultan knish said...

there's already a government in power that doesn't follow the torah, the choice is between a government that doesn't properly follow the torah vs one which will work to uproot the torah

it's better to save millionos of lives by going with a flawed candidate who will at least not do great harm and not work to uproot the torah, than to allow one who will to come to power

is it really a 'good' that costs the land of israel and numerous lives? can a way that ends up helping terrorists and producing numerous more hatuel's really be considered good?

what the sanhedrin release says is a good thing, if 4 was implemented we wouldn't be in the crisis that we're in, but calling for voting on any party whose leadership is faithfull to the torah would require finding such a party at this point, I would seriously question whether Shas or UTJ qualify and some of the Mafdal\Ehud Leumi leadership would flunk too. There are doubtfully true torah parties, just lesser evils.

kahaneloyalist said...

sultan, we must learn a lesson from Sharon. We cant trust the non-Frum. they have always cracked under pressure from Begin to Shamit to Netanyahu to Sharon if they dont believe in Hashem they will betray Eretz Yisrael.

Besides which I think the Rambam's opinion is clear we must work for a Torah government, at this point the only two parties even worth considering are Hazit and Bead Arzeynu.

simplejew said...

sultan knish, no mean to disrespect, you are in denial when you say "the choice is between a government that doesn't properly follow the torah vs one which will work to uproot the torah". it's NOT a choice. one who "doesn't properly follow the Torah" is also uprooting it. and by the way, in case people already forgot kadima was born from likud.
unfortunately jews are not very good at learning from their mistakes. in the past they have vote for likud over and over again. it was bibi and then it was sharon and look where we are all now....
we should stop being pragmatic and "practical" and "realistic", it always got us in trouble. we must have faith in Hashem and rely only on His Torah.
Vote for Moshiach!!!!

kind regards

simplejew said...

forgot, here is a link

shabbat shalom

sultan knish said...

and the non-frum haven't cracked under pressure? It was thanks to Shas that Oslo was voted in. Thanks to the Haredi parties Disengagement came through. How much has NRP been? Frum parties have no better a track record than the non-frum.

Working towards a Torah government is a nice idea, but handing a seat or two to such parties while handing the victory to Kadima will only insure the continued destruction of Israel under an Anti-Torah government.

sultan knish said...

simplejew, there's a vast difference between a government that doesn't follow the torah but works with torah parties and protects a torah life to some extent vs one that works to actively uproot it, just as there's a vast difference between America and the Soviet Union

Kadima was born from Likud and Labor, and the very worst of both parties

having faith in Hashem in his Torah is key but that doesn't mean failing to do what we can to save ourselves and our people. We are indeed obligated that when we have a way to save ourselves, to take it.

Keliata said...

From what I see, Israel is disappearing a little each day, Gush Katif, Amona...what's next to appease terrorists and their allies? How much land can be turned over and still maintain the safety of Israeli citizens?

And given the rise of anti-Semitism in the world, in Europe in particular, Jews must have a home; a safe haven.

Israel needs a strong leader in office to maintain the stability of the land of Israel--and its government. The nation can't be allowed to topple like some unstable third world or South American country.

Were that to happen every Israeli would be at the mercy of the dark forces surrounding it--literally and figuratively.

Lemon Lime Moon said...

If Israel is disappearing, it is worth remembering that it cannot unless Jews make it so.
Hashem has promised that he will protect it, IF .... and IF NOT....
Unfortunately many read this perek and forget what it says to do if you wish to hold fast to what has been given.
Parshat Ki Savo...
If you will observe all these things...
but if you willnot..
Well, someone isnt.

simplejew said...

sultan, when it comes to faith there should not be any "buts". Hashem has a great test for us (as usual). this test is not about kadima, likud, etc... we have an opportunity to show if we stand on the side of Hashem or on the side of erev rav governments/golden calf. we can continue to be "practical" and use our logic and do our maths, calculating our next steps, but that is not what Torah is asking of us. this logic failed us over and over and over again. there are jews who "calculate" that jewish livestyle is too expensive and not worth it (money wise) and they are right in their calculations. there are jews who "calculate" that if they don't give tzedokah they are better off, and their maths is perfect. there are jews in "uniform" who "calculate" that unity, even with evil, at all cost is worth it. and they compromise Torah knowingly and willingly.
BUT Torah doesn't ask for our "calculations"!!! and the reason we celebrate Purim and Chanuka is because a MINORITY of jews put their faith in Hashem with no "buts". we would not be here today if it wasn't for those "unrealistic" and "impractical" jews!
the difference between america and russia is irrelavent here, because they are goyshe representatives who have their own function in this world. when it comes to jews and our choices it's whole different game. we have specific guidelines for the choices we make... with no "buts".

sultan, please don't treat this as a personal attack on you. i realise that your intentions are good. but it's important to keep in mind that Hashem is way above our logic. don't let it fail you.

kind regards

sultan knish said...

actually practical calculation was behind yavneh, it was also behind those jews who fled to america when many of the rabbonim were telling them to stay behind in poland, for that matter practical calculation was behind the actions of mordechai and the macabees

practical action does not mean betting on a sure thing, it does mean having a plan of action that can succeed and then having emunah that Hashem will help it succeed,

on the other hand flapping your hands and hoping to fly from a sinking ship is not a practical plan of action, it is suicide by another name. it requires and expects a great miracle from Hashem and we cannot rely on such miracles, nor make our plans that depend on them; instead we must make practical calculations for survival and failure to do so is indeed a great sin.

We have choices coming before us and they are not at all pleasant ones. But we only have two choices. We can choose to put into power a rabidly anti-religious power that will work to dismantle Israel or a party that while flawed has some respect for Torah and will not work to destroy Torah or Israel.

These are the only two choices that exist. Whatever choices anyone thinks they are making, they are actually choosing one of these two choiches because these are the only two choices that have a chance of success. Since Kadima carries the high odds of success, choosing anything but the Likud chooses Kadima. It doesn't matter if you vote for Meretz or the NRP or boycott the vote to protest the system. The outcome is the same and therefore your choice is the same.

We cannot know the exact specifics of what Hashem wants us to do in this situation but it cannot be the elevation of an Anti-Torah regime to power. I certainly do not believe so.

NYT said...

So simplejew, which so called torah party is really torah true?
Since none of them see things the same way.

simplejew said...

to nyt: if one has to choose a true Torah party out of the ones that are there, i would say hazit (boruch marzel) is the best candidate. having said that i believe that no politician is able to restore order in Eretz Israel.

to sultan: the choice you are talking about... to me it sounds like 1. death by hanging 2. death by electricution 3. death by a lethal injection. which one is better????
when voting for Torah, it doesn't mean one is relying on a miracle. it's actually the other way around... when voting for erev rav governments one MOST DEFINITELY is relying on a miracle.
when you talk about "plan of action" what exactly do you mean??? bibi officially stated that "painful concessions" are unavoidable. he is saying openly that he is going to expel more jews from their homes, give away land to our enemies, etc...
he has given away land in the past (when he promised he wouldn't) this is a great threat to Torah, as well as to precious jewish lives. so what is your plan of action when it comes to bibi???

sultan knish said...

since Hazit isn't even likely to get enough votes to wind up in the knesset and its candidate likely to be removed from the knesset, even if he gets in, such a vote is utterly wasted

the choice I'm talking about is simple

1. an aggressive anti-torah party that will give away yerushalayim and dismantle israel

2. a weakened party that may talk about concessions but lacks the strenght to implement anything

the former is death, the latter buys us time.

there is no vote for 'torah', there are only votes for men. nor is there any consensus by rabbanim on which party to vote for and plenty of contradictory statements made in that regard.

when it comes to voting for men, we can vote for the men will will work to destroy it, for those who will do nothing or we can choose some third option which will wind up voting for those who will destroy it.

we always rely on miracles but miracles happen k'derech ha teva. voting for hazit and expecting israel to be saved is like flapping your arms on a sinking boat. voting for the likud and hoping that this will at least buy time is like trying to get into a leaky boat which you can try to patch on the way. neither is a good solutionb ut one is suicide and the other is a possible option. since we cannot rely on miracles and since miracles happen k'derech ha'teva that is the only possible course of action.

simplejew said...

between you and me (and everyone else who is reading :)) i think kadima will stay in gov. even if the whole country votes against it. it got where it is illegally and it will find means to stay there. (it's the same as what is happening in belarus now). so in terms of elections i don't believe any vote matters.
however, this vote matters in our relationship with G-d. that's all.

kind regards

sultan knish said...

I have no doubt that Kadima will tamper with the vote to some extent to boost their showing and the Belarus analogy is apt, but they can only tamper a limited amount and public turnout can compensate for their tampering

our relationship to G-d matters in how we live our lives, it doesn't however mean taking a suicidal course and expecting a miracle unless that's what we've been explictly commanded to do here

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